Customer gets into open carry dispute

[zybysco]

Differences between Connecticut and Tennessee. The topic and videos in question happened in Connecticut, but bear analysis, I'd say.

If officers couldn't just pull you over to check your license, then DUI checkpoints would be a no-go, but courts up to SCOTUS have ruled them legal. Though I'm not exactly happy about that.

In Tennessee, yes, an officer can stop you anytime to check your permit if you're carrying. The part of the TCA for it specifically says "The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer." Like I said earlier, in Tennessee carrying a handgun is always a crime, and a permit is simply a defense to prosecution. I'd imagine it was left that way specifically to make sure LEO's can always check without any other reason. Connecticut has no such language as best we can tell, and open carry being perfectly legal up there, my view is that absent any other factors, the citizen was pestered to the point of harassment by the officer.

I'd say after Heller and McDonald, gun ownership is recognized as an individual right. Carrying off your property, still a work in progress, and for now the government treats it as a privilege only they can bestow in our state. Car ownership would be classified as reserved to the people (provided the proper taxes are paid, of course), but operating a car on the roads is an entirely different story. The salient details let the government come in and set up regulatory shop on things like this.

But you don't have to produce anything at a DUI checkpoint, right?

[btq96r]

But you don't have to produce anything at a DUI checkpoint, right?

 

Not in my experiences.  I can't recall ever not being asked for my license.

[zybysco]

Not in my experiences. I can't recall ever not being asked for my license.

I thought they could ask, but you are not required to comply. Of course, cops can lie to you all they want.

[btq96r]

I thought they could ask, but you are not required to comply. Of course, cops can lie to you all they want.

 

According to this public listing, they consider checking drivers licenses (DL), among other things to be a-okay.  I doubt they would be so blatant about it if they didn't think current and possible case law backs them up. 

 

As to LEO's being able to lie in the course of their duties...that shouldn't be permitted unless an arrest has been made, IMO. 

[JayC]

While driving without a license is a violation of the law, a police office must have probable cause to pull you over and have a reason to ask to see your drivers license.  The only reason officer here in TN can stop us and ask to see a permit is because we have a stop an ID law that allows them to...

 

Just because a few people drive a car without a license, there is no probably cause you're driving a car without a license, so the officer can not pull you over and request to see your license because he wants to.  That is the point I'm making.

 

Driving without a license is violating the law, as is carrying a handgun without a permit.


Some see this cop as the Gestspo, hell bent on cutting the Constitution to pieces, one tiny slice at a time. I see a guy trying to do a job frought with conflicting requirements, morons, and hostility.

Respect goes both ways. The cop asked a simple question, possibly Illegally, because he felt compelled to for reasons we're not aware of, and got treated like dirt for his trouble. I suppose we can agree to disagree on whether or not he deserved it.

 

[JayC]

You'll note these are all ran by the highway patrol...  I believe there is a loophole in current state law that allows Troopers to perform drivers license checks, but does not extend to other law enforcement agencies.  Something to do with the TDOS owns the license in your pocket they just allows you to carry around their property.

 

According to this public listing, they consider checking drivers licenses (DL), among other things to be a-okay.  I doubt they would be so blatant about it if they didn't think current and possible case law backs them up. 

 

As to LEO's being able to lie in the course of their duties...that shouldn't be permitted unless an arrest has been made, IMO. 

[RobertNashville]

Just my opinion but I believe that when someone who openly carries gets this confrontational with police; I suspect they are openly carrying for the express purpose of getting into a confrontation and starting an argument about the "law" on the sidewalk (or in this case, in the middle of a shopping mall).  Some may see this as simply standing up for our "rights" but I say that these people do NOTING GOOD for promoting support for civilian carry or the for supporting the Second Amendment.

[45guy]

Just my opinion but I believe that when someone who openly carries gets this confrontational with police; I suspect they are openly carrying for the express purpose of getting into a confrontation and starting an argument about the "law" on the sidewalk (or in this case, in the middle of a shopping mall).  Some may see this as simply standing up for our "rights" but I say that these people do NOTING GOOD for promoting support for civilian carry or the for supporting the Second Amendment.

 

I think you are probably correct about why they are open carrying but does that really matter.  If what they are doing is not illegal they should not be harassed.  Also the cops should know also that they are probably looking for a confrontation and should be extra careful with their interaction.  There are several YouTube videos of thinks going both ways, cops being respectful, asking a few questions and moving on.  Then some that the go really bad for the gun owner.  I personally would never open carry if I thought it would cause the cops to get involved.  My experience has been even if you are right the cops can make your life a living hell.  I have seen people arrested and their face plastered all over the news only to have the charges later dropped, but the damage has already been done.   

 

I am not anti cop, I am pro citizen.    

Edited January 23, 2016 by 45guy

[RobertNashville]

I think you are probably correct about why they are open carrying but does that really matter.  If what they are doing is not illegal they should not be harassed.  Also the cops should know also that they are probably looking for a confrontation and should be extra careful with their interaction.  There are several YouTube videos of thinks going both ways, cops being respectful, asking a few questions and moving on.  Then some that the go really bad for the gun owner.  I personally would never open carry if I thought it would cause the cops to get involved.  My experience has been even if you are right the cops can make your life a living hell.  I have seen people arrested and their face plastered all over the news only to have the charges later dropped, but the damage has already been done.   

 

I am not anti cop, I am pro citizen.    

I get that they aren't doing anything illegal but as someone said earlier (and I'm highly paraphrasing here); openly carrying, especially in a very public place, is somewhat like baiting a hook, throwing it into the water and then complaining when you catch a fish.  If an open carrier is going to go fishing that way there is no benefit to anyone by being unnecessarily confrontational.

 

[Chucktshoes]

I get that they aren't doing anything illegal but as someone said earlier (and I'm highly paraphrasing here); openly carrying, especially in a very public place, is somewhat like baiting a hook, throwing it into the water and then complaining when you catch a fish. If an open carrier is going to go fishing that way there is no benefit to anyone by being unnecessarily confrontational.

The OCers may be trolling with a baited hook, but the officers are under no obligation to take that bait. Everyone involved is responsible for their own actions. That's what folks on both sides tend to miss. The OCer in the video is an asshole, and so is the cop using the power of his position to harass someone who's sole crime is being an asshole.

There is no good guy in that video. Edited January 24, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[ken56]

Can someone elaborate on how hiding your rights under your shirts is promoting "civilians" carrying and supporting the 2A? How is it that if I go and order a sandwich at subway while CC is innocuous but openly is baiting?  Oh, that's right, no one knows if they can't see it. Look, I do both OC and CC as I have stated before and I expect to be left alone by everyone, especially the police, if I am not breaking any laws. Just like everyone else who just wants to get a sandwich at subway. Do I agree with how the guy handled it? Well, I am only responsible for my own behavior just as he is and if that is how he stood up to an unlawful detainment and harassment then so be it and good for him. I have had nothing but good experiences while I OC. Comments have been all positive and the few police officers that have seen me OC have handled it exactly as I believe they should and did absolutely nothing because I was doing nothing wrong. The only way others will be educated that good people carry guns too is if they see other good people like themselves carrying. Hiding it doesn't do it.

[Omega]

Can someone elaborate on how hiding your rights under your shirts is promoting "civilians" carrying and supporting the 2A? How is it that if I go and order a sandwich at subway while CC is innocuous but openly is baiting?  Oh, that's right, no one knows if they can't see it. Look, I do both OC and CC as I have stated before and I expect to be left alone by everyone, especially the police, if I am not breaking any laws. Just like everyone else who just wants to get a sandwich at subway. Do I agree with how the guy handled it? Well, I am only responsible for my own behavior just as he is and if that is how he stood up to an unlawful detainment and harassment then so be it and good for him. I have had nothing but good experiences while I OC. Comments have been all positive and the few police officers that have seen me OC have handled it exactly as I believe they should and did absolutely nothing because I was doing nothing wrong. The only way others will be educated that good people carry guns too is if they see other good people like themselves carrying. Hiding it doesn't do it.

I promote the 2nd by carrying, and supporting others who carry.  I don't support one method of carry over another.  Having said that, I don't think it advances the cause to be an ass about it, from either side.  Many, unfortunately on both sides, have agendas and all they want is confrontation for either publicity, for or against, the cause or attention seeking.  

[Possumslayer]

Respect the cop and follow his orders..... If there was a problem contact his commander the next day or your lawyer..

[ken56]

The problem with just obeying unlawful orders is that you make it OK if you voluntarily comply and then you have NO complaint to make. When you voluntarily comply then you have just willfully given up your rights to the bully cop and that negates your complaint. If I am truly in violation of the law I expect I WILL be arrested for that violation and go through the system, and rightly so,  but when I am breaking no laws and I am approached by officer friendly because he wishes to exert some of his perceived power over a law abiding citizen then that's when I stand up for my rights and don't voluntarily give them up so easily. I will be as polite as I can be all the while doing so. I also believe in my right to record such encounters, after all, cops don't lie, do they?

[JayC]

“If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” 
― Samuel Adams

 

 

Respect the cop and follow his orders..... If there was a problem contact his commander the next day or your lawyer..

[diamondback]

I get the idea of exercising your rights. I don't get the idea of being a whiny dick about it, especially to cops. They're like fish on a hook. You dangled the bait, they bit on it, and the harder you reel, the harder they fight back. You're never going to win the "reasonable suspicion" argument with a cop.

Be nice. Show them your ID. Then show the open carry law that you've got bookmarked on your phone for just this sort of occasion. Explain politely. Offer to talk to their boss and explain it to the whole department. Be nice.

I am that way in that I don't give the cops a hard time unless they do me. I see people on youtube walking away about "Am I being detrained". I have a permit also and inform the cops of that. I tell them I am aware I don't have to show them it, but since I appreciate their job I do. I have not any but one incident yet and it was more a cop admiring the 1911 grips I had ( 1911 American flag Hogue).

[RobertNashville]

The OCers may be trolling with a baited hook, but the officers are under no obligation to take that bait. Everyone involved is responsible for their own actions. That's what folks on both sides tend to miss. The OCer in the video is an asshole, and so is the cop using the power of his position to harass someone who's sole crime is being an asshole.

There is no good guy in that video.

 

No, the cops weren't obligated but that's not my point...my point is about not being a jerk for no other reason than being an a jerk.

Unnecessary confrontations like this do a disservice to everyone that wants to foster acceptance of of civilian carry among those who think civilians shouldn't be allowed to carry (concealed or open).

Edited January 24, 2016 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

...The only way others will be educated that good people carry guns too is if they see other good people like themselves carrying. Hiding it doesn't do it.

I've probably heard statements like the above hundreds, maybe even a thousand times but I've never found (and I've looked) any study or reputable source that supports the assertion that openly carrying has ever "educated" anybody which causes me to think the claim is more of a wish than it is based in fact.

That said, if openly carrying does educate people it doesn't take much of an imagination to imaging the education that goes on when someone who is openly carrying acts like a jerk to the police. ;)

Edited January 24, 2016 by RobertNashville

[Chucktshoes]

No, the cops weren't obligated but that's not my point...my point is about not being a jerk for no other reason than being an a jerk.

Unnecessary confrontations like this do a disservice to everyone that wants to foster acceptance of of civilian carry among those who think civilians shouldn't be allowed to carry (concealed or open).

I know your point wasn't about the cop. You chose to ignore the fact that the cop was a jerk in initiating this confrontation and instead focused on the OCer being a jerk in responding to it. That's cool, I didn't. The fact that the OCer was acting like a jerk doesn't absolve the cop for acting like a jerk as well and vice versa. Like I said before, everybody is responsible for their own behavior. Always and without exception. Edited January 24, 2016 by Chucktshoes

[peejman]

The OCers may be trolling with a baited hook, but the officers are under no obligation to take that bait. Everyone involved is responsible for their own actions. That's what folks on both sides tend to miss. The OCer in the video is an asshole, and so is the cop using the power of his position to harass someone who's sole crime is being an asshole.

There is no good guy in that video.

There's a lot of potential reasons why cop may have been obligated to investigate. We don't know that someone didn't call in a MWAG, or other such complaint. He may be under standing orders from his boss to always investigate anyone OC'ing. The OC'er may have see the cop first and been acting fidgety and nervous in preparation for his planned confrontation. ....

[btq96r]

Respect the cop and follow his orders..... If there was a problem contact his commander the next day or your lawyer..

 

It wasn't an order, it was a request, and a request the open carrier has no reason to acquiescent to.  Watch the second video down in the link (an LEO followed him to another business) and the LEO's flat out said that he told the business owners, "we can't order you to present your...ahh...permit."

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=667_1452648888

 

So, why the issue?  The open carrier was harassed by the LEO's because he dared to open carry a firearm, as he was qualified by his state to do. Respect goes both ways, once they disrespected the carrier, they lost his respect, as they would mine.  I also would have been just as uncooperative as the open carrier were I in his place.

[Chucktshoes]

There's a lot of potential reasons why cop may have been obligated to investigate. We don't know that someone didn't call in a MWAG, or other such complaint. He may be under standing orders from his boss to always investigate anyone OC'ing. The OC'er may have see the cop first and been acting fidgety and nervous in preparation for his planned confrontation. ....

And none of that gives the cop any right or authority to continue to harass someone who was not engaging in any illegal activity because he did not comply with a request he was under no legal obligation to comply with. I don't give a damn whose shiny badge you are wearing, when you make a demand of me that you don't have the authority to force me to comply with and I tell you to piss up a rope, guess what your options are?

[peejman]

And none of that gives the cop any right or authority to continue to harass someone who was not engaging in any illegal activity because he did not comply with a request he was under no legal obligation to comply with. I don't give a damn whose shiny badge you are wearing, when you make a demand of me that you don't have the authority to force me to comply with and I tell you to piss up a rope, guess what your options are?

 

 

No argument, both were being dickheads.  But I still say that had the OC'er not defaulted to dickhead, the entire encounter might have been positive rather than negative. 

[LagerHead]

No argument, both were being dickheads.  But I still say that had the OC'er not defaulted to dickhead, the entire encounter might have been positive rather than negative. 

 

To which OC'er are you referring? Funny how nobody has a problem with a cop OC'ing, but Bob forbid one of us lowly subjects have the gall to even think about it.

 

But no, we don't see a clear, glaring, obvious, so-plain-even-Stevie-Wonder-could-clearly-see-it double standard here, do we?

[peejman]

So since all cops open carry, all open carriers have the same authority and responsibility as cops?