On The Lands/COAL Question

[BBdown]

I'm very much a novice at reloading and am needing some expert advice. I have a Savage FCP-SR in .308 Win. I put a Barnes 168 TTSX into an empty case with a loose neck. I placed it in the chamber and slowly closed the bolt several times(pulling bullet back each time)then measured the OAL. It measured between 2.949 and 2.952 every time. I'm guessing this is where the ogive is contacting the lands?
Barnes recommends seating the 168 at .05 off the lands. That puts my COAL at 2.900ish. That is .09 longer than what the manual says is a maximum at 2.810. The 2.900 will load into and feed from the magazine. Since it's not right on the lands I think this would be safe and not increase pressure.
Let me know if I'm on the wrong path.
I've read that historically savages have had shorter throats. I was kinda surprised that mine seems longer.
Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[BBdown]

I'll add that I've been fairly disappointed with this rifle so far. I've tried countless boxes of factory ammo and the ONLY ammo it shoots well is the Hornady American Whitetail 150 grain interlock.

[tmauto769]

You might be forcing the bullet into the lands just a bit and on retrieval it is sticking and pulling it back out of the case. I have the same rifle and it indeed has a shorter throat than normal. I have the Hornady COL gauge and the special case for it, and I found I was getting irregular measurements even with that until I inserted in easy. With a 175gr BTHP from rocky mountain I was getting a 2.750" oal, and a 2.193" oal @ the ogive IF I am reading my notes correct. With that being said, I don't have a lot of time with this rifle yet, and the only time I took it out, I was having some scope issues, so I didn't waste anymore time fooling with it that day. You may try to resize the case so the bullet has a tighter fit allowing it to stay put, just a thought.

[BBdown]

I thought about it getting stuck. But I didn't think I'd get basically the same measurement 5 or 6 times if it was getting stuck. I'll resize and reseat the bullet progressively deeper until the bolt closes to confirm. Thank you for that.

[enfield]

Be sure to mark your loads as being for that particular rifle, since they are over the specified length.

[Patton]

Since it is for a .308 I bet you could find someone with a Hornady Lock And Load gauge to determine the depth.

[Sidecarist]

An old trick used to find the throat is to seat a bullet a little long in a tight neck then smoke it (sharpie works too) carefully chamber it and extract. If the bullet is in the lands they will leave marks in the smoke. It may take several tries to get it right but this will show you how the bullet is engaging the lands too. Such as more on one side than the other indicating an off center chamber etc...

[Grunt67]

Seating to the lands is fine "if" you're firing single shot, other wise it still has to fit in the magazine. FWIW

 

 I went thru that same scenairio with my Rem. 783 in .308. Ended up seating the bullet to the same a factory

OAL, to fit in the mag. Probably could have stretched it to the max, but for hunting, didn't seem worth the effort.

Match shooting, different animal altogether.  Just a thought. Depends on your needs. Good luck.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Grunt67

[DWARREN123]

As long as possible is not always the best just as a max load is not always the best.

What is the twist rate of the barrel, that can have a effect on accuracy depending on bullet weight (length).

And as has been said smoking or marking the bullet until you get off the lands is an old trick but works.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If you are scrubbing the barrel after each range session don't. Savages shoot better when fouled, or at least the ones I have did.

[BBdown]

Thanks for the replies and helpful info.
UPDATE: I went today and got the Hornady OAL gauge and the bullet comparator. Just starting out I wanted to be absolutely sure I was doing it the best and safest I could. I measured with 6 different bullets from the same box 5x each. The average case bottom to ogive is 2.277. That puts my OAL at 2.953 on the lands. Which, by the way, is only a couple thousands off what I got last night without $70 in fancy gadgets. LOL. I'm going to seat .05 from the lands which is what Barnes recommends. This puts my coal at 2.895. They still fit in the mag and feed fine.
I tried both marker and smoke last night and neither was helpful.
When I first got it I did a barrel break in (don't ask me why) and did in fact clean it after every range session. Being disappointed I read on the inter webs they often shoot better with a dirty barrel. So I neglected it for a hundred or so rounds. Still not impressed. Shot it both suppressed and un-suppressed and still only the Hornady American Whitetails shoot well.

20" barrel 1/10 twist.
I should have some loaded for this weekend. I'm just trying to figure out how to sneak a chronograph purchase in without the Mrs. knowing. Haha

[tmauto769]

Just out of curiosity how long is that barnes bullet you are using? 

[pwm6799]

I was working up some the other night with the new 168 tipped match kings and ended up at about 2.930" oal and it was still shorter @ the ogive than comparable a-maxes loaded to 2.85

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[rgmeddn]

I suggest that you go back to the "marker and smoke" process. If you found it to be not helpful, then you were not touching the lands.
Try this: seat a bullet tightly at 0.010 longer than what you currently think would be barely touching the lands. Mark around the point of contact with the ogive. Close the bolt gently and if you feel resistance back out and see the marks in the ink/smoke. Seat the bullet 0.001 deeper and repeat. Even when your bolt closes fairly easily, there will be marks in the ink (I have more luck with ink than with smoke, and don't forget to wipe the ink and reapply it). You will find the point where there will be faint marks and then the next time no marks. You have found exactly where your base to ogive is. This is YOUR chamber, YOUR headspace, YOUR cartridge, and YOUR bullet at the cost of a sharpie, one case and one bullet. (Keep it for future use and comparisons.)
Unfortunately using OAL introduces the irregularities at the tip of even match grade bullets. Base-to-ogive is the ticket.

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[rgmeddn]

Oh, and if you're not touching the lands with your starting point then you have to go even longer and find where you do touch them.

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[BBdown]

Here are the pics. I sat the bullet long. Pushed the bolt a little at a time until I felt resistance. I did this probably 10 times. It looked similar to this every time. Just a ring at that same spot. I NEVER saw anything that resembles rifling. The bullet will not go any deeper without it getting stuck and having to use a cleaning rod to get it out. The 2 or 3 times it did get stuck I still saw nothing that resembled rifling. Maybe the throat is narrow? Maybe rifling isn't right? Maybe I'm an ignoramous? I've spent hours watching old timers YouTube video doing this and hours doing it. I'm not doing it again. Not one more time!! LOL. :-) I've loaded some up. They fit in the mag, feed, and chamber fine. I'm starting with the recommend minimum charge. Wish me luck. I really do appreciate all the help and suggestions.


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[BBdown]

I used the case comparator when seating them and went .05 off the 2.277 measurement I got.


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[BBdown]

They are 1.406 in length.


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[Handsome Rob]

Here's how I measured my 'jam' length (no gadgets required)

Remove your bolt.

Take a bare bullet (no case, bullet only) & gently push it into the breech with a pen/pencil/stick until it won't go any further. Just slight pressure, don't hammer it in!

Insert your cleaning rod down the muzzle (it helps if you can block the thread hole here. I use the threaded portion of a cleaning jag, with the jag cut off) until it contacts the bullet tip.
You may end up pushing the bullet out of the rifling, so be prepared to hold it in place.

Mark your rod at the muzzle.

Knock the bullet out & replace the bolt.

Close the bolt & dry fire so your firing pin is out of the way, then reinsert your cleaning rod from the muzzle.

When the rod contacts the bolt face, Mark it again at the muzzle.

If you measure between these marks, it'll give you your jam length (max COAL) with that particular bullet.

I'll admit, it's not perfect due to meplat differences bullet to bullet, but I've found it to be 'within a thou' consistent.
Once you have this, you can figure your jump to lands & experiment up & down.