Carry permit and trigger work?

[Guest sharpshooter01]

Question, Let's say I have my carry permit and do end up shooting someone in self defense and I have had trigger work done to my carry gun will this be more of a legal issue than if I had not had work done to the trigger? Or will they even check to see if the gun has had any work done? I ask this because I have thought about getting some work done on my M&P.45, but if it is going to cause trouble then I will forget about any work and keep it stock. Thanks.

[Guest sling]

Thats a tough question. Some people will say yes...most will probably say not.

However, if you intend to carry that M&P i would keep it bone stock as far as internal parts are concerned. Trigger jobs and other various mechanical 'upgrades' can affect the reliability of your gun. For a self defense gun use the KISS method.

Keep it stock, load her with a good quality hollow point cartridge, shoot quite a bit of this cartridge to make sure its functional, and your golden.

IMO, i would want a SD gun to have a pretty long drawn out trigger. Once adrenaline kicks in... that long trigger may keep you from an accident.

[Oh Shoot]

Question, Let's say I have my carry permit and do end up shooting someone in self defense and I have had trigger work done to my carry gun will this be more of a legal issue than if I had not had work done to the trigger? Or will they even check to see if the gun has had any work done? I ask this because I have thought about getting some work done on my M&P.45, but if it is going to cause trouble then I will forget about any work and keep it stock. Thanks.

Urban legal myth would say "maybe".

I believe Mas Ayoob has written that it has, or could, I disremember. I know he's big on DAO guns for the "no hair trigger" legal reasons.

Question I've always had re this, is who exactly would determine that you DID have work done? Anybody think that any PD, even big city, would have some firearms expert take the gun apart and be good enough to know and testify to such?

Whatcha think DoubleAfter? (our active mouthpiec...um...attorney)

- OS

Edited December 3, 2008 by OhShoot

[Guest bkelm18]

If its a good shoot you shouldn't have to worry about it.

[Garufa]

I've actually wondered a similar thing regarding ammo. I heard years ago never to use reloads for home defense, not because of reliability or whatnot, but because of the sensation it could create from the uninformed. "Oh, well regular store-bought was not good enough for that killer, he had to make his own", etc.

I sometimes even wonder about using store bought hollow-points for the same reason. "Oh, well shooting someone is not good enough, he wants to tear 'em up".

Now I know this the South and not the gawd-awful NE or Left Coast but....

[Oh Shoot]

...I heard years ago never to use reloads for home defense, ...wonder about using store bought hollow-points for the same reason. "Oh, well shooting someone is not good enough, he wants to tear 'em up"....

Yeah, Ayoob and others have generally advocated against the use of home loads on legal grounds, but the hollow-point fear seems pretty much a non-issue any more, since most all police dept's use them, the defense being there is less chance of over-penetration and peripheral risk.

I agree that in general, a "good shoot" is a good shoot, but then there's always the issue that the perp might not have been killed or injured so badly if a "normal" round were used. Of course, that would probably come more into play in the civil part of the nightmare.

But these are are old and often beaten to death debates ... and probably none of the above would have much effect, UNLESS the shooting were questionable enough to be tried, either criminally or civilly.

In which case any consideration might come into play;for example, a hot home loaded .454 casull with a skull and crossbones grip motif, 3 other backup guns, etc. might not be generally advisable.

- OS

Edited December 3, 2008 by OhShoot
add'l thoughts

[Guest m&pc9]

I would think if it was a good shoot it wouldn't matter

But I think if you had an AD and hurt someone, That it would be a problem.

[Guest RISC777]

Question I've always had re this, is who exactly would determine that you DID have work done? Anybody think that any PD, even big city, would have some firearms expert take the gun apart and be good enough to know and testify to such?

- OS

My thought exactly, OS. If "minor" polishing has been done to smooth the action, that's not a "major" trigger job. If you've modified or had a third party modify the firearm to a 1 lb. pull, that might be another thing. But as OhShoot stated, "Who's going to determine if trigger work has been performed?"

And, who is going to / or might / or will make the determination that any trigger work, on that basis alone, makes it a non-good shoot, or that charges should be brought based on that alone?

[Fallguy]

Going with majority I guess....

If it is determined to be a good shoot nothing about the weapon or ammo etc... should come up. If there are any questions about it, it could be an issue.

I admit I have no first hand knowledge, but there are several ways a shoot can be determined to be good though, isn't there? I mean the DA could simply say so and decided not to file charges based on the police report or it could go to grand jury and a no bill be issued, or anything in between, right? So it is is more than just the DA deciding not to pursue charges, I guess it could come up during that process, but whether it would be an issue or not...who knows

[Guest sling]

And, who is going to / or might / or will make the determination that any trigger work, on that basis alone, makes it a non-good shoot, or that charges should be brought based on that alone?

Because when theres a will, theres a way.

[Punisher84]

I actually had the pleasure of talking to Massad Ayoob over the summer when he was in town doing a writer's conference. I picked his brain about some of these issues that he brings up like carrying extra ammo, trigger work, etc.

His take was pretty much that they SHOULD be non-issues and would be in a perfect world. The problem is that SHOULD a D.A decide to prosecute and did find out you had lowered the trigger pressure he COULD introduce you as a "rambo" with disregard to public safety, blah,blah,blah. It sounds stupid to US, but remember, if they can introduce any doubt about your character to a jury they could get you convicted. Because hey if you were so "irresponsible" to lighten the trigger pressure on your gun then maybe you were "irresponsible" when you "murdered" that "poor young man."

The story I most clearly remember is the pharmacist that was being robbed and shot the robber with a .22 target pistol. Then as the robber fled, the pharmacist accidentally shot him again in the back. I believe he was finally found innocent, but he lost everything paying fees and in a civil suit.

My humble opinion, use a stock pistol with over the counter hollow points and be able to defend INTELLIGENTLY your choice of weapon and ammo. Find out what your local LEOs are issued. I.E they carry hollow points and you carry hollow points. You can kill any argument about ammo from a D.A with that little tid bit. If you carry a target gun, just be able to defend that choice.

[John Wall]

Although I cannot go into detail because of attorney/client privilege, I can, from first hand knowledge, say it is very likely a firearm and ammunition used in a Lethal Encounter WILL be checked out. Trigger pull weight, altered or deactivated safeties, and other modifications can be a determining factor in a criminal or civil case.

Right here in Nashville, a firearm and ammunition used in an apparent homicide was THOROUGHLY checked out. The firearm was found to have been modified, and WAS a determining factor in a criminal action a while back.

I have performed forensic background work for attorneys in firearms related incidents.

Leave your carry gun's fire control system stock, and use mainstream factory ammo. Remember Winchester's "Black Talon"? The REAL reason it was discontinued was because the Law Enforcement Community had nicknamed it "BLACK FELON" ammo! Ironically, it performed no better than most of the other brands of premium defensive ammo of the period.

No "Super Devastator", "Ultra Man Killer", or such ammo!

[Guest bkelm18]

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Edited December 5, 2008 by bkelm18

[Guest bkelm18]

Although I cannot go into detail because of attorney/client privilege, I can, from first hand knowledge, say it is very likely a firearm and ammunition used in a Lethal Encounter WILL be checked out. Trigger pull weight, altered or deactivated safeties, and other modifications can be a determining factor in a criminal or civil case.

Right here in Nashville, a firearm and ammunition used in an apparent homicide was THOROUGHLY checked out. The firearm was found to have been modified, and WAS a determining factor in a criminal action a while back.

I have performed forensic background work for attorneys in firearms related incidents.

Leave your carry gun's fire control system stock, and use mainstream factory ammo. Remember Winchester's "Black Talon"? The REAL reason it was discontinued was because the Law Enforcement Community had nicknamed it "BLACK FELON" ammo! Ironically, it performed no better than most of the other brands of premium defensive ammo of the period.

No "Super Devastator", "Ultra Man Killer", or such ammo!

"Apparent Homicide"? You're talking about murder here, not a self defense shooting. If its a good shoot, you're not going to be charged with murder. And even if you do, it falls on the old saying: Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

[Guest TnDeerHunter]

As far as the trigger job goes all it takes is a trigger pull scale and a call to the company that made the firearm to see what the stock trigger pull is. I tend to agree with sling on the long trigger pull . You just don't know how you will react till you are in the position you have to.

[Schadenfreude]

I doubt there are any P.D.s that don't issue Hollow points even N.Y. city it's not that you say the local pd uses them so there, you need to know what brand & load they carry & use that if you want to push that argument. The gun that I carry most of the time breaks at 6.5 lbs. I agree that there is no magic bullet - shot placement, shot placement, & shot placement.

[Fadex]

Personally I don't want my carry weapon to have a break pressure anywhere near my target pistol. I'd shoot myself.

[Punisher84]

"Apparent Homicide"? You're talking about murder here, not a self defense shooting. If its a good shoot, you're not going to be charged with murder. And even if you do, it falls on the old saying: Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

To some DAs it's all the same though brother.

[Fallguy]

True... As I was reminded in another thread, anytime a human kills another human it is a "homicide".

In a self-defense situation it is called a Justifiable Homicide.

So by apparent homicide, maybe he meant it was apparent that the person was killed by another and not by himself or natural causes, etc...

[Guest sharpshooter01]

Thanks for the replys. No more than I get to shoot I guess I will leave it alone.

[Guest nraforlife]

Change your sights is ok, trigger jobs and reloads gets real iffy. Atty's get paid my the hr so its your call.

[Guest TnDeerHunter]

I asked a criminal lawyer who lives next to me and he said the first step after was it justifiable or not would be to check gun and to see if it was factory or not, if using reloads or if weapon had been modified in any way. His words were I,m out to win for my client if using reloads or weapon had been modified this is the best place to start to make the shooter look bad in the face of jury. He also stated he would hate to be in front of a jury for murder and know he was inocent.

[Guest bkelm18]

Well, I don't modify my triggers, but I'll do what it takes to give me the edge in a confrontation and if it saves my ass then I'll worry about the trial when it gets to that. If you're going to a trial, that means you're still alive and not lying in the street with a bullet in your head after some punk pops you for your wallet or your car.

[Guest nraforlife]

Well, I don't modify my triggers, but I'll do what it takes to give me the edge in a confrontation and if it saves my ass then I'll worry about the trial when it gets to that. If you're going to a trial, that means you're still alive and not lying in the street with a bullet in your head after some punk pops you for your wallet or your car.

But if your dead, your spouse gets your insurance money and other benefits. If you end up going to court you'll lose your arse in fees and other BS proving your innocence and costing your family everything. Wish I could be more sarcastic on how fricked up the legal system is and how being innocent can still ruin your life.

[Guest bkelm18]

But if your dead, your spouse gets your insurance money and other benefits. If you end up going to court you'll lose your arse in fees and other BS proving your innocence and costing your family everything. Wish I could be more sarcastic on how fricked up the legal system is and how being innocent can still ruin your life.

So you're saying you'd rather die than have to go through the legal process? Sorry, not me. I like life a little too much for that.