New AR trigger

[.357SIG]

Has anyone seen the new trigger from franklin armory, called the binary firing system? It is a interesting design. Basically when the switch is in the third position the rifle fires when the trigger is pulled and when it is released. I wonder how long until the ATF tries to get rid of this?

MAC did a pretty good review on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVJHVqgXRVI

Thoughts?

[TMF]

The occasional hammer riding the bolt if you pull the trigger too fast? No thanks. Sounds like a recipe for a slam fire. I don't see how that didn't happen here, if that hammer rode the bolt (firing pin) home.

[TripleDigitRide]

Neat idea, but I am most interested in reliability. This is especially true when dumping $400 on a trigger!  :screwy:

[TMF]

$400????? Well that seals that. Definitely not touching that, ever. That's two stamps or a Glock.

[atlas3025]

I foresee lots of ND's.  If you are using it and don't want to fire the release round, how do you keep from discharging it?  Switching it to safe?

[.357SIG]

You switch it back to the semi position and then release the trigger in order to not fire the second round upon release.

I agree that the $400 is more than it is worth to me but hopefully they will come down in the future.

[mikegideon]

Too many malfunctions to even be useful. A bump fire stock is better.

[Caster]

No way I'd want/trust that. Theres been people modding AK triggers like that for years. It's reckless. The rifle ONLY needs to fire when pressed. Anything else is just dangerous.

[Trekbike]

No way I'd want/trust that. Theres been people modding AK triggers like that for years. It's reckless. The rifle ONLY needs to fire when pressed. Anything else is just dangerous.

Yep. Accident waiting to happen.

Wait until a stressful situation occurs and all the years of learned muscle memory to let off the trigger kicks in and bam another round downrange whether you wanted to or not.

[GKar]

After seeing some folks try to handle a shottie with a release trigger, I'll pass...

[gunwhatgun]

Hmmmm.....fail. My favorite part is the part where he talks about it being a "drop in" that goes into any standard lower, but at the 1:00 mark in the video and box pops up saying that you may need a gunsmith and that it may not work in all lowers.

[Kevo]

One of my customers who builds AR'S as a hobby told me about it. We both agreed too much money for a working gun. Might be fun to "play" with at the range, but this isn't isn't a drop in rimfire conversion that you can take off in ten seconds and simply lock up. The weapon always has that trigger and the potential for lethal mistakes is avoidable by not having a unique trigger on a familiar platform. Edited January 9, 2016 by Kevo

[btq96r]

If one pull of the trigger (and I'm including the reset) results in more than one round being fired, how is it still a semi-automatic weapon?

 

That's not just me asking, that's a federal judge asking in the future.

[TMF]

If one pull of the trigger (and I'm including the reset) results in more than one round being fired, how is it still a semi-automatic weapon?

That's not just me asking, that's a federal judge asking in the future.

ATF says it's cool. I'm assuming since releasing the trigger is still an action, just as if it were a trigger that needed to be pushed forward rather than pulled; pulling then releasing are two separate actions.

[gjohnsoniv]

Well that's cool but certainly not $400 cool.  Wasn't there another trigger like this? Tricon or something?

[Johnny Rotten]

Hmmmm.....fail. My favorite part is the part where he talks about it being a "drop in" that goes into any standard lower, but at the 1:00 mark in the video and box pops up saying that you may need a gunsmith and that it may not work in all lowers.

Probably needs a low shelf lower like a spikes tactical, it looks like the trigger is wide and might interfere with a sear block on many lowers.

 

Well that's cool but certainly not $400 cool.  Wasn't there another trigger like this? Tricon or something?

Tac-Con

https://tacconusa.com/

Edited January 11, 2016 by Johnny Rotten

[btq96r]

ATF says it's cool. I'm assuming since releasing the trigger is still an action, just as if it were a trigger that needed to be pushed forward rather than pulled; pulling then releasing are two separate actions.

 

Once upon a time ATF said the SIG Brace was cool to fire from the shoulder.  Their word is as trustful as a car salesman's to me.

[KKing]

Meh. I have a bump fire stock my wife got me as a gift. I've used it one time. Lucky for me I have friends with multiple full auto weapons I can use to scratch that itch without diving in the deep end.

Id never buy one.
I sorta like the forward grip... Anyone know anything about it?

BCM Keymod angled grip Edited January 11, 2016 by KKing

[TMF]

Once upon a time ATF said the SIG Brace was cool to fire from the shoulder. Their word is as trustful as a car salesman's to me.

It's illegal to fire a brace from your shoulder now?

[btq96r]

It's illegal to fire a brace from your shoulder now?

 

Has been for almost a year now.

http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-11615-atf-issues-open-letter-declaring-the-shouldering-of-sig-brace-illegal/

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

[TMF]

Has been for almost a year now.
http://gunssavelives.net/gun-industry/breaking-11615-atf-issues-open-letter-declaring-the-shouldering-of-sig-brace-illegal/
https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

Curious, since anyone can go onto YouTube and see countless videos of the braces being used in this manner. Has the ATF gone after anyone yet for this?

[btq96r]

Curious, since anyone can go onto YouTube and see countless videos of the braces being used in this manner. Has the ATF gone after anyone yet for this?

 

I don't know if they've gone after anyone...seems more like it would be used as a tack on charge if nothing else.  Their current opinion holds that the brace is legal, and doesn't convert the pistol to a rifle, so long as the pistol isn't fired with the brace against the shoulder.

 

There was a whole to-do with ATF telling SIG that the brace was okay used in any way since it was never designed to be fired from the shoulder.  SIG even put a copy of that documentation on their website, and a copy in the brace packaging if memory serves.  Then with enough people rocking the boat asking ATF "are you sure?" in combination with the explosion of sales, the not so subtle "f-u's" to the ATF, and probably a loss of revenue with a diminishing of Form 1/Form 4 tax stamps, firing an AR pistol with a SIG brace from the shoulder made it an SBR and the shooter in violation of federal law.

 

Here's a good background on how ATF reversed itself on the decision.  Political pressure can task lawyers to justify anything.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/robert-farago/atf-dont-use-sig-brace-as-shoulder-stock-without-nfa-stamp/

 

But yeah, their word is, shall we say, finicky.  I don't see this trigger being anything close to the SIG brace in terms of market share, but if it gets big enough, I can see them saying it ain't semi-auto. 

[TMF]

I don't know if they've gone after anyone...seems more like it would be used as a tack on charge if nothing else.  Their current opinion holds that the brace is legal, and doesn't convert the pistol to a rifle, so long as the pistol isn't fired with the brace against the shoulder.

 

There was a whole to-do with ATF telling SIG that the brace was okay used in any way since it was never designed to be fired from the shoulder.  SIG even put a copy of that documentation on their website, and a copy in the brace packaging if memory serves.  Then with enough people rocking the boat asking ATF "are you sure?" in combination with the explosion of sales, the not so subtle "f-u's" to the ATF, and probably a loss of revenue with a diminishing of Form 1/Form 4 tax stamps, firing an AR pistol with a SIG brace from the shoulder made it an SBR and the shooter in violation of federal law.

 

Here's a good background on how ATF reversed itself on the decision.  Political pressure can task lawyers to justify anything.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/robert-farago/atf-dont-use-sig-brace-as-shoulder-stock-without-nfa-stamp/

 

But yeah, their word is, shall we say, finicky.  I don't see this trigger being anything close to the SIG brace in terms of market share, but if it gets big enough, I can see them saying it ain't semi-auto. 

 

 

One thing is for sure, there hasn't been a decrease in the number of form 1/4's going up to the ATF.

 

I'd be really curious about whether or not they'd choose to pursue charges for the use of the Sig brace as a shoulder stock.  They'd be hard pressed to get a conviction, and the result would be some case law on it actually being legal.  The ATF can rule on just about anything.  They could figure out some convoluted reason why my 28 inch turkey shotgun is illegal, I'm sure.  Doesn't mean that it's illegal.  Just their opinion.  My guess is they're not going to submit charges for cases they're destined to lose, and the result be the clear legalization of things they don't like.

[Oh Shoot]

One thing is for sure, there hasn't been a decrease in the number of form 1/4's going up to the ATF.

 

I'd be really curious about whether or not they'd choose to pursue charges for the use of the Sig brace as a shoulder stock.  They'd be hard pressed to get a conviction, and the result would be some case law on it actually being legal.  The ATF can rule on just about anything.  They could figure out some convoluted reason why my 28 inch turkey shotgun is illegal, I'm sure.  Doesn't mean that it's illegal.  Just their opinion.  My guess is they're not going to submit charges for cases they're destined to lose, and the result be the clear legalization of things they don't like.

 

If they had wanted to test it in court, would have already done it. Besides existing vids, simply send agents to hang around shooting ranges with small cams, wouldn't take long.

 

The last time they tried to prosecute a narrow decision like this, (Thompson Decision) they lost a lot of prosecutorial power, both with the pistol/rifle/pistol and "possessive construction" issues.

 

It's also noteworthy that no one has ever been convicted of having a VFG on a handgun either.

 

Seems they're content to just let their tradition of gray intimidation suffice.

 

- OS

[mikegideon]

 

Seems they're content to just let their tradition of gray intimidation suffice.

 

- OS

 

You got it figured out. They can't do it by brute force. That's a really good way to get your ass kicked.

 

The secret to dealing with millions of heavily armed rednecks... Don't be a dick. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by mikegideon