Tactics Question

[Bullet280]

Since I have my CC and have purchased several protection devices and ammunition  :clap:  I have been talking to my family about what we should do if there is a incident in our home.  We were debating last night and the following scenario came up.  \

 

If we are all (4 - me, wife, two daughters 22 and 15) in the house going about our business and a intruder comes in and is a real threat.  My response is immediate, family behind me, draw and shoot.   What are my families best options.  Duck down and crawl on all 4, lay flat and still (I personally don't believe this is a option, but for discussion sake) or stay upright and create distance as fast as possible?  We see pros and cons to each option. :dropjaw:   Wanted to get some advise, thank you

[TMF]

It's good to war game and come up with a general reaction plan, but trying to get super specific is counterproductive. Just identify priorities of work and what primary role one serves; for example, I'm primarily responsible for physical defense, while my wife is responsible for securing and evacuating the children. A scenario may occur where those roles need to be reversed, but at least we have identified what the priorities are so we can focus on those no matter the circumstances.

It isn't like a movie, and no plan survives first contact with the enemy. Just identify what the priorities are, who is generally responsible for what, and have an evacuation plan as well as a link up plan. Edited January 8, 2016 by TMF

[peejman]

Very situationally dependent.  Unfortunately there's no "one size fits all" solution.  Depends on how your house is built, where you are relative to "safe" exits, and whether you have single or multiple attackers.

 

I think the first choice would be to seek cover....  bullet-resistant cover.  So shutting an interior door isn't cover.  If cover isn't immediately available, the next choice is escape.  Moving targets are hard to hit.  But you don't want them running straight to the attacker's buddies waiting in your driveway, or falling down the stairs in their haste. 

 

You've got to look at how your house is laid out, where everyone is likely to be, how an attacker (or attackers) might enter, and determine a plan (or plans) of action based on that. 

[CommsNBombs]

Best laid plans always go to crap when bullets start flying.

Do not overthink the scenarios, especially since they will change immediatly, you can be asleep, they can come in through windows, etc.

A generic plan will work, get somewhere out of the line of fire, have a rally point and quick access to your gun.

My family's plan is my wife grabs the baby and runs to the back closet with some guns and I get some guns and shoot homies in the face

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Sidecarist]

Understanding who does what is the first priority. If someone isn't fighting then they should be getting to a safe location without endangering themselves. Your 15year old is the one that will need the most guidance about what is safe and how to get there. Identify a couple of safe or safer locations in your home and keep access to them clear. Stock them with a method to defend the position, and possibly an old cell phone plugged into a charger (Even an inactive cell phone will dial 911).

 

I have a day pack with a phone inside but with the wire running out through an earphone port as a grab bag. I can grab and go without unplugging. The bag is also stocked with a spare pistol, flashlight, and some other essentials. THink about the contents of a bag like this for a friend it includes an asthma inhaler and an eppipen. Everyone's needs are different.

[peejman]

Our plan is basically pretty simple as well....    If BG is not between us and the kids, I engage the BG, she gets the kids and calls 911.  If the BG is between us and the kids, I engage BG as necessary on my way to the kids, she calls 911.  If I can get to the kids and get out without engaging, I will.  Rally point is neighbor's driveway. 

Edited January 8, 2016 by peejman

[Truckie]

I would think rally point of neighbors driveway is too close.. it will work if there is a house fire but I would think with a BG you need to be about a block away minimum.

When Responding to calls with FD, when there may be a threat,( attempt suicide, domestic , fight , assault etc. ) we stage several blocks away until dispatch
tells us scene is secure (by PD)

a house or two away, you can easily be engaged by a BG even if he is fleeing the scene....


If you live in the country and neighbors driveway is a quarter mile away... you should be good for a rally point

[peejman]

I would think rally point of neighbors driveway is too close.. it will work if there is a house fire but I would think with a BG you need to be about a block away minimum.

When Responding to calls with FD, when there may be a threat,( attempt suicide, domestic , fight , assault etc. ) we stage several blocks away until dispatch
tells us scene is secure (by PD)

a house or two away, you can easily be engaged by a BG even if he is fleeing the scene....


If you live in the country and neighbors driveway is a quarter mile away... you should be good for a rally point

 

 

My kids are little, having them run a couple blocks isn't realistic.  The neighbor's driveway puts the physical barrier of a tree line and a house between them and our house. 

[Sidecarist]

Everyone's plans are subject to the personal situation. It has to be very basic easily understood by all ages involved. AS your kids get bigger you may choose to revise your plan. For me the rally point is on our property, but our layout demands this.

 

For the plan to survive first contact in any useable way it must be very basic, easy to remember, and also flexible.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Bullet280]

Ok guys, I understand each situation is different and everybody's neighborhood is different.  But what I'm hearing is there isn't any fundamentals we can learn for safe retreat for family members that aren't trained to engage.  That is like saying to the LEO or military shouldn't train because each situation is different and the geography is different so sorry there are no fundamentals..... just wing it!   

 

I appreciate the responses and maybe I am over thinking it.  Here is my thinking on this though, if I am learning fundamental engagement tactics to protect my family, they will have confidence I will do everything possible to protect them.  I need them also to have confidence the best thing they can do is take safe cover, my hope was I could give them some fundamentals.  Like what they might expect, how to move with strategy and minimize panic, and what are the best movement types for survival. 

 

 

Here is what I'm taking away so far:

 

1) create a staging area

2) establish roles and priorities

3) be aware there may be more than one BG

4) Use you instincts.   ( lol. It's this one that bothers me)

 

So, is this what you tell your family?  IF BG COMES IN, USE YOUR INSTINCTS and run to staging area..  :wall:

Edited January 8, 2016 by Bullet280

[teecro]

Let me ask you this when is the last time or have you ever bothered with practicing for a fire in the home? If your answer is never then your really over thinking this.... The basic premise in most any emergency situation is to have a central gathering point if able so that you the Sheepdog can decide what to do with your flock from there.

 

"Since I have my CC and have purchased several protection devices"

 

And just what are these protection devices?

[DaveTN]

One of the worst cases I remember from being a cop was a home invasion. Having a plan is a good idea. But you must understand a home invasion is not like a burglary; it will go down fast. It could be over before people in other rooms know what is going on or have time to react.

Be able to put a loaded functioning gun in your hand immediately.

Most home invaders will take you by physical force before you have time to arm yourself. They will be armed and they will start shooting as soon as they see a threat. Time is critical.

Pick your weapons carefully and buy the very best you can afford. Become intimately familiar with them. Learn point instinct shooting so you can shoot a person without the use of sights or trying to get a sight picture. Sights are for target shooting.

Think about what you will be doing in the first few seconds. Gathering people together or going somewhere will probably not be an option.

And get a dog.

[monkeylizard]

And just what are these protection devices?

 

I can't speak for Bullet280, but mine are the 3 C's

 

Condoms, Cat litter, and Claymores. Don't ask about the cat litter.

[teecro]

Don't cats deposit their claymores in the direct pathway to the bathroom?

[Bullet280]

OK, I am over thinking this... The conversation was actually pretty casual at first, but it did generate thinking.   I really hope we are never faced with a situation where the SHTF.  But it doesn't hurt to get others opinions on fundamentals and challenge thinking on it.

 

 

I did gain some insight on this topic though, and appreciate the replies. 

[CommsNBombs]

The first thing is not making yourself a target - I am not talking about laying C Wire and Claymores around your house and going Walking Dead either.

Be careful whom you talk to about what you do, dont let unkown people know your schedules, keep up your situational awareness - dont recognize a car, see a person snooping? Watch for it. It doesnt necessarily always warrant a 911 call but that is up to your discretion.

Other things are a home security program - or even the sign. Illumination, motion detectors - obviously locking and latching what needs to be locked and latched.

Assembly areas are good but you never know where the BG(s) are going to approach from - a good strongpoint would be somewhere defensible, easily accessible and provides good COVER - not concealment. A garage, storm room, attic, or if you can - get into a car or run to a retaining wall or fenceline.

Range time! Practice makes perfect isnt just what your 6th grade coach said when you missed your free throws. Everyone capable of using a firearm should know how to employ it, clear malfunctions and shoot.

You dont need some high speed training courses - getting used to your weapon systems, applying the fundamentals of trigger discipline, sight picture, point of aim, recoil management go a long way.

You can be a CAG dude, SF, a ninja or some IDPA paragon but the second you start taking fire or get charged by an enemy - that high speed barrel roll Wanted spin shot you learned wont save the day - the fundamentals will.

I have an assload of pistols and my daughter is only a month old, so stashing one in every room is okay for me to do. Hell some people go as far as carrying in their home.

If some turds enter your home, most likely theyll either shoot you or charge you and try to gain the advantage - so a pistol is your best bet, sucks wrestling with a musket or shotgun which can be grabbed by some asshat hopped up on drugs.

Drill a retreat plan, do it from different angles, do it on suprise - build that muscle memory, my wife and I do it every once in awhile to stay sharp.

A go bag is helpful but if youre in the dining room you cant exactly run to your closet and call a timeout, with the tech age - hopefully someone has a phone so you can call the cops or your neighborhood pipe hitters.

End of the day we plan and hope it never happens. Godspeed.

ETA: some basic first aid or casualty care training wont hurt either. Sucks to get away to find out you or a loved one got shot in the adrenaline rush and now you have arterial bleeding and/or are going into shock



Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk Edited January 9, 2016 by CommsNBombs

[ehull20000]

I would think 4 people attacking would be better than 1 person attacking and 3 moving to cover (which likely doesn't exist in your home).

Women can and should attack just as you would. Even throwing the first thing they find in their hands into an attackers face would buy you time to draw and shoot.

Remember that loosing a home invasion fight likely is worse for women than men. I don't have a daughter, but I'd much rather my son be murdered in a violent counter attack attempting to save his family than get raped and then get murdered without any opposition. Teach your kids to be vicious warriors and fight dirty.

If the 15 year old can't help attack she should be on her phone to 911 as it is likely already glued to her hand while moving to a trauma kit.

But that's just me. In the end it's your family and I think you are doing great just having a weaponized mind and keeping defensive tools in easy reach.

[teecro]

Might look into these http://strikeplatelock.com/ they appear to make an entrance door a lot harder to bust open.....

[brat]

 

4 people attacking would be better than 1 person attacking and 3 moving to cover

 

This ^^^^^

 

Like DaveTN said, should this scenario goes down, it'll be fast, maybe too fast to react to. Chances of people being caught in different parts of the house are likely. Then everyone's cut off from the rest. If I get rushed, taken to the floor and held at gunpoint or shot, I would rather have my family trained so they can protect themselves, not just call 911. Especially if they're young adults and teens. Besides firearms, the training should include trauma care. Everyone needs to know how to use "their" weapon and everyone's IFAK or other first aid.

 

 

Lastly....

 

 

And get a dog.

 

 

I have an alarm system, but they are only good "after" the bg's are inside. The mutt let's me know when anyone first gets on the property. Gives some valuable time to get a hold of those "protection devices" you mentioned.

[peejman]

Have a friend come over to play BG and practice. Preferably without loaded guns.

[CommsNBombs]

Hell yeah wargames ill come over in full kit and tackle you

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[Bullet280]

Hell yeah wargames ill come over in full kit and tackle you

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LOL, I'm 6'-1" 250# lean, still go to the gym 4 times a week.  When you tackle me make sure I don't land on you :devil:    I may not be able to get back up...and sometimes I have old man gas, my number one defense mechanism....haha 

 

Good stuff guys, thanks for the insight.  We are small town country people and never really thought about this stuff much.  Some things are happening too close to our new home that we are not accustomed to, so we are re-thinking security and action plans. 

 

I like the thought 4 is better than 1.  My wife and youngest daughter panic easy.  you can't even walk in a room behind them without them jumping and hyperventilating.   :eek:    I will discuss this with them and get their thoughts.    

[tacops]

I realize that this is an older post but I have been asked very similar questions several times over the last few months by people that have recently realized we live in a much different society than we used to and have no previous exposure to "tactical thought" other than tv and movies.  They have recently purchased a weapon may or may not have completed a CC class, went home and felt better for a day or two until they started asking themselves "what if" and didn't have an answer.  So they go to Google, start reading forums such as this one ( Which I wish to say is one of the best forums I have followed as for accuracy of info and temperament of discussions).  Those of you that read this with background will find it very basic and elementary but many people have not walked the path before.  They simply have not been exposed to the tactical thought process and are seeking to learn.  The following is very, very basic and is divided into four categories, each of which can be infinitely expanded upon.  I will address the concept of home invasion in a very general manner since that was the concern in the original post.

 

1) Planning - Forget TV and movies.  Have an evacuation plan but don't plan to evacuate.  By this I mean to have a plan if you determine that evacuation is needed and feasible for the situation at hand.  This should include rally points such as a designated neighbor or two if you have neighbors but be sure to let them know that they are part of your plan.  They may have their own plan for someone banging on their door at 2am.  They can call 911 or be a great flanking force if they are of such mindset.  If no neighbors, have two or three rally points identified in case one is compromised.  Have duties assigned that match abilities.  Know where the best concealment and cover is within your home.  Possibly even reinforce a "safe room or closet" with weapon access stored within.  That could be an immediate go to point for those less trained to fight and evacuation is not feasible.  Weapons can be strategically placed but don't place them about the residence in plain sight readily accessible by those that should not have them such as Bad Guys (BGs), children, or the untrained.

 

2) Detection - Early detection is key for it provides more time for assessment / response / reaction.  

• The most effective form of early detection, and one of the most effective deterrents is a dog or dogs.   BGs don't like them because they make noise, are unpredictable, bite, and see better than the BG especially at night.
• Wireless driveway motion alarms are inexpensive and multiple sensors can be daisy chained to one receiver with a different audible for each location.  These can be placed around the property along potential approach routes.  The sound will identify where the motion is. (Position so that the dog doesn't drive you nuts.  My dogs don't bother mine but the deer sometimes activates them)
• Motion detection lights.  BGs don't like light.  The combination of these three will have you miles ahead.  You can expand this as far as your imagination and wallet allows.  There are many devious and ingenious welcoming surprises you can ad but you may risk unintended injury to innocents.

3) Delay - If you have early detection you are a step ahead.  You have had the time to acquire weapon and your family moving to a defensive posture previously planned and discussed.  Now you wish to delay BGs from gaining entry if they are so inclined.  Here are a few simple actions but there are many:

• Remove the 3/4 inch screws in your striker plates of your exterior doors and replace them with 4 inch stainless screws that will drive deep into the framing of the door jamb.  This will change them from one kick to a door that will take time to defeat.  (Delay that allows you to take action)
• Position furniture below windows so that fluid entry is hampered through windows and be sure to use your door and window locks.
• Delay improvements are only limited by imagination and wallet capacity.

 4) Tactics - Did I mention forget TV and Movies?  Basic fundamentals are your focus.  I caution you about watching internet videos and yes even reading forums.  You can find some good info in both but there is a ton of idiocy and bad advice out there as well.  There are an infinite number self professed experts spreading garbage that will get you hurt.  Kind of ironic that your reading this in a forum huh.  Just be sure and filter the info you read through a common sense filter.

• Understand concept of cover and concealment. Cover stops bullets, concealment hides you but does not stop bullets.
• You have family.  Sheet rock walls don't stop bullets.
• Your index finger is the first safety.  Keep your finger off the trigger of any weapon until you have identified your threat and ready to engage.
• Know your target and know your backstop.  You have family.  You are in an intense situation.  You don't want to be 2 pounds into a 4 pound trigger pull if an excited family member suddenly exits a doorway.
• Train with your weapon and practice, practice, practice.  You should not have to think about your weapon handling, you should be practiced enough that it comes natural.  Understand and practice proper grip, trigger squeeze and sight alignment as well as failure drills. Then learn to put 2-3 rounds rapid fire into your target looking over the sights not through them.  Do this from a "low-ready" position not "fast draw" from the holster.  If your weapon is still in the holster after 1-2-and 3 above you need to go back to #1 anyway.  We don't want to read another post about somebody that has an extra hole in their foot or leg.  Remember that "smooth is fast".  Start slow and deliberate and work your way up.  If you know a reputable certified instructor don't hesitate to seek their instruction.  Yes, there is a need to learn to be able to clear your holster in a controlled rapid manner in other situations and one should be well versed in this if they plan to CC.  Learn proper, solid weapon handling fundamentals first.  Especially keeping finger off the trigger.
• Understand the use of light, darkness and shadows to your benefit.  Avoid back lighting yourself, the BG may understand the use of light and darkness.  High intensity weapon lights may be used to disorient or temporarily blind the BG, situation dependent. 
• Learn noise disciplined movement, how to pie a corner, and if more than one of your family is armed practice communication.  Such as, announce before you enter a room you know a family member is in.

These are just very basic steps, and others may ad much more to this.  Read, learn, practice, prepare and then pray that you never have to use the skills and knowledge you acquire.

Edited March 8, 2016 by tacops

[Jamie Jackson]

Very good post tacops.

 

I especially appreciate your recommendation for professional training. Far too many folks view their firearm as a talisman and/or think because they've played Call of Duty or watched shootouts on TV that they are GTG. Reality vs Fantasy/Unreality...

 

We are blessed here in TN to have quite a few quality training venues available to us...like our own Randy Harris aka CruelHandLuke as well as many other nationally recognized trainers being hosted in our state.

Professional quality training is probably the most important investment we could choose to make.

 

Thanks for taking the time to post this.

[Dolomite_supafly]

What you should be doing is this.

 

PRACTICE, PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE!

 

Unload the gun and practice drawing, a lot. And do that for an hour a day every day for a week then at least once a week after that. A lot of muscle memory can be established without firing a single shot. Under stressful situations your body will do all kinds of silly stuff but if you have enough practice your body will default to the muscle memory. You may not be able to hear, have tunnelvision or freeze but if you practice enough to draw your gun and fire from muscle memory that will help combat that. It is not a bad idea to do some exercise to get your heart rate up either. Stress from exercise (I mean REAL exercise) is similar to the effects adrenaline has on the body.

 

This is my normal practice routine at home. I will make sure the gun is unloaded and no ammunition is around (I am forgetful and recognize accidents do happen). Then I kind of meander in front of the television or talk to my wife. Then I make a mental note of a color. When someone on television is wearing the same color I draw and fire at that person. You normally get a few seconds before the camera goes to someone else so it does put a bit of a rush on you. It will show you if you have any fundamental flaws in how you carry or draw.

 

And then when you think you have trained enough it is time to contact a professional to attend a class. Cool Hand Luke, Prag and Gotthegoods are all great people who are part of training people every week. It would not be wasted money to learn from them. And before anyone thinks the cost of a class is too much think about this. We all have insurance on our homes or cars in the event of something bad happening. Training is no different in that it is something you hope you never have to use but when you do you sure are glad you had it. And the knowledge you gain is something you will keep forever. That is something that no person can ever take from you.

 

And finally how loud and obnoxious a trainer is does not relate to how good of a trainer someone is. I would rather have a calm professional than some drill sergeant jackwagon trying to belittle me after I have spent a lot of money. I would feel like a fool if I paid someone to abuse me.

 

Great advice but I caution anyone against leaving booby traps to intentionally harm someone. You cannot injure someone just for coming onto your property and that is exactly what most booby-traps will do. Not to mention the risk to those I love. But if you injure someone intentionally with a booby trap you will likely be charged criminally and then sued.