ATF Guidance: Do I need a FFL

[runco]

Fox News is providing a link, and thought it needed its own thread:

 

https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download

 

U. S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

DO I NEED A

LICENSE TO

BUY AND SELL

FIREARMS?

Guidance to help you understand when a Federal

Firearms License is required under federal law.

The guidance set forth herein has no regulatory effect and is not intended

to create or confer any rights, privileges, or benefits in any matter, case, or

proceeding, see United States v. Caceres, 440 U.S. 741 (1979).

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? i

Introduction...................................................................................... ii

Key Points........................................................................................ 1

Legal Framework............................................................................. 2

Gun Shows, Flea Markets, and Internet Sales.............................. 3

Guidance.......................................................................................... 4

Examples.......................................................................................... 7

Questions & Answers on Getting

a Federal Firearms License............................................................ 9

Table of Contents

ii DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Introduction

The federal Gun Control Act (GCA) requires that persons who are engaged in

the business of dealing in firearms be licensed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives (ATF). Federal firearms licensees (FFL) are critical partners

in promoting public safety because — among other things — they help keep firearms out

of the hands of prohibited persons by running background checks on potential firearms

purchasers, ensure that crime guns can be traced back to their first retail purchaser by

keeping records of transactions, and facilitate safe storage of firearms by providing child

safety locks with every transferred handgun and having secure gun storage or safety locks

available any place where they sell firearms. A person who willfully engages in the business

of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution,

and can be sentenced to up to five years in prison, fined up to $250,000, or both.

Determining whether your firearm-related activities require a license is a fact-specific inquiry

that involves application of factors set by federal statute. This guidance is intended

to help you determine whether you need to be licensed under federal law.

Note that some states have more stringent laws with respect to when a state-issued

license is required for selling a firearm. Please consult the laws of the state to ensure

compliance.

In addition, this guidance focuses on the question whether your firearm-related activities

require you to obtain a license. There are other laws and regulations that govern the

transfer of firearms—both between unlicensed individuals and from licensed dealers

(e.g., unlicensed sellers may only lawfully sell to persons within their own state, and it is

unlawful for either licensed or unlicensed sellers to sell firearms to persons they know

or have reasonable cause to believe cannot lawfully possess them). All persons who

transfer firearms, regardless of whether they are engaged in the business of dealing

in firearms, must ensure that any transfers are in compliance with federal, state and

local laws.

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? 1

Key Points

 Federal law requires that persons who are engaged in the business

of dealing in firearms be licensed by ATF. The penalty for dealing in

firearms without a license is up to five years in prison, a fine up to

$250,000, or both.

 A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms

regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are

conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business

of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm

transactions at gun shows or through the internet .

 Determining whether you are “engaged in the business” of dealing in

firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of

your activities.

 As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and

sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast,

if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal

collection, you do not need to be licensed.

 Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on

which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether

you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are

repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under

which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make

a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant

indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a

license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or

two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

If you have any questions about whether you need a license under federal law, we recommend

that you contact your local ATF office (https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-field-divisions) to

evaluate the facts and circumstances of your particular case.

2 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Legal Framework

Who needs a Federal license to deal in firearms?

Under federal law, any person who engages in the business of dealing in firearms

must be licensed.

What does it mean to be “engaged in the business of dealing in

firearms”?

Under federal law, a person engaged in the business of dealing in firearms is a person

who “devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course

of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the

repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.”

Under federal law, conducting business “with the principal objective of livelihood

and profit” means that “the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is

predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other

intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection.”

Consistent with this approach, federal law explicitly exempts persons “who make

occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a

personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection

of firearms.”

Has ATF defined what it means to be “engaged in the business” of

dealing in firearms?

ATF has published regulatory definitions for the terms “engaged in the business”

and “principal objective of livelihood and profit.” ATF’s regulation defining when a

person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms is identical to the language

of the statute, though in the definition of “dealer,” ATF clarified that the term

includes “any person who engages in such business or occupation on a part-time

basis.”

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? 3

Gun Shows, Flea Markets, and Internet Sales

What if I only sell firearms at flea markets, gun shows or over the

internet?

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the

location in which firearm transactions are conducted. A person can be engaged

in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm

transactions from a location other than a traditional brick and mortar store.

Many licensed gun dealers conduct business at temporary locations such as qualified

gun shows or events, and utilize the internet to facilitate firearm transactions.

The question under federal law is not where firearm transactions are conducted, but

rather is whether — under a totality of the circumstances — the person conducting

those transactions is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. The factors

listed below apply to that determination regardless of where the firearm transactions

occur.

The growth of new communications technologies and e-commerce allows sellers

of firearms to advertise to an expansive market at minimal cost, and complete sales

with minimal effort. While a collector or hobbyist may use the internet and other

communication technology to sell a firearm without a license (provided that they

comply with all other federal and state laws and regulations), those engaged in the

business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must

obtain a license, just as a traditional dealer whose business is run out of a traditional

brick and mortar store.

4 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

A. Overview

What activities require a dealer’s license?

Federal law does not establish a “bright-line” rule for when a federal firearms license is

required. As a result, there is no specific threshold number or frequency of sales, quantity

of firearms, or amount of profit or time invested that triggers the licensure requirement.

Instead, determining whether you are “engaged in the business” of dealing in

firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities.

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms

with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional

sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed. In

either case, all of your firearms transactions are relevant, regardless of their location;

it does not matter if sales are conducted out of your home, at gun shows, flea markets,

through the internet, or by other means.

B. Factors Identified by Federal Courts

Federal courts have identified several factors that can help you determine on what side

of that line your activities fall. They include: whether you represent yourself as a dealer

in firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances

under which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make a profit. It is

important to note that no single factor is determinative, and that the relative importance

of any of the factors will vary depending on the facts and circumstances applicable to the

individual seller.

Are you representing yourself as a dealer in firearms?

Perhaps the clearest indication of whether a person is “engaged in the business” of

dealing in firearms can be found in what he or she represents to others. Some factors

that may demonstrate that you intend to engage in the business of dealing in firearms

include: representing yourself as a source of firearms for customers, taking orders, and

offering to buy firearms to immediately resell. Your intent to engage in the business of

Guidance

As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy

and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In

contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your

personal collection, you do not need to be licensed.

Relevant factors: whether you represent yourself as a dealer in

firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms;

the circumstances under which you are selling firearms; and

whether you are looking to make a profit.

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? 5

Guidance (continued)

dealing in firearms can also be reflected by undertaking activities that are typically

associated only with businesses — for example, creating a business entity or trade

name for your firearms business, securing State and local business licenses to sell

items that may include firearms, purchasing a business insurance policy or rider to

cover a firearms inventory, commercial advertising, printing business cards, and

accepting credit card payments.

Are you repetitively buying and selling firearms?

As noted above, there is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or

sold that triggers the licensure requirement. Similarly, there is no “magic number”

related to the frequency of transactions that indicates whether a person is “engaged

in the business” of dealing in firearms. It is important to note, however, that even

a few firearms transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient

to establish that a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. For

example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as

two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place.

That said, courts have looked at both the quantity of firearms sold, as well as the

frequency of sales, as relevant indicators. When combined with other factors, selling

large numbers of firearms or engaging in frequent transactions may be highly

indicative of business activity.

 What are the circumstances under which you are selling firearms? Are you

selling shortly after acquiring them? Repeatedly selling the same type of

firearm? Or repetitively selling new firearms?

In addition to the volume and frequency of firearms transactions, the timing and

circumstances surrounding firearm transactions are also significant indicators of

whether a person is engaged in the business. Repetitively selling or offering to sell

firearms shortly after they are acquired; “restocking” inventory; repetitively acquiring

the same type of firearm or a large quantity of the same type of firearm, and then

reselling or offering to sell those firearms; and/or repetitively acquiring and reselling

or offering to sell firearms in unopened or original packaging (or in new condition),

are all factors which individually or combined may indicate a person is engaged in the

business.

Are you looking to make a profit?

As noted above, if you are repetitively buying and selling firearms “with the principal

objective of livelihood and profit,” you must be licensed. Because the key is intent or

objective, the courts have made clear that a person can be “engaged in the business”

of dealing in firearms without actually making a profit. In determining that intent or

objective, courts have looked to prices that an unlicensed seller charges for firearms

to determine if the principal objective of the seller is livelihood and profit. In some

cases, prices reflect appreciation in actual market value resulting from having held a

6 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Guidance (continued)

firearm as part of a collection, or reflect a profit intended to be used to acquire

another firearm as part of a collection. As a result, the fact that a transaction results in

a profit for the seller is not always determinative.

Finally, it is important to note that courts have found that you can buy and sell

firearms “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” even if your firearmrelated

activities are not your primary business. In other words, you can still be

“engaged in the business of dealing in firearms with the principal objective of

livelihood and profit” if you have a full time job, and are buying and selling firearms

to supplement your income. ATF regulations specifically note that the term “dealer”

includes a person who engages in such a business or occupation on a part-time basis.

Does a Curio and Relics Collector’s license (C&R license) allow me to be

engaged in the business of dealing in firearms?

The C&R license does not allow for the licensee to repetitively buy and sell firearms

with the principal motive of making a profit. It does not matter if the firearms being

bought and sold are curios or relics, or newer firearms. If a C&R licensee wishes to

engage in the business of dealing in firearms, he or she must apply for a different type of

license that allows this activity.

Do I need a license if I’m an auctioneer and simply auction guns for my

customers?

If you repeatedly conduct auctions for firearms that are first consigned to you for sale,

and you intend to make money from those sales, you need a license. If, however, you

simply offer auctioneer services without having the firearms transferred to you (for

example, you are hired by the representative of an estate to travel to the location of the

estate, assist the estate in conducting an auction, and the firearms remain the property of

the estate until transfer to the buyer), you need not be licensed.

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? 7

Examples

While the determination of whether a person requires a federal firearms license is highly

fact-specific, the following examples are provided to show how the factors identified by

federal courts apply to common fact patterns. Of course, the existence or absence of other

facts not included in the examples may change the conclusion as to whether a person

is engaged in the business and therefore must be licensed; hence, these examples are

provided solely as general guidance. For the purposes of these examples, assume that the

sellers comply with all other relevant federal and state laws and regulations (for example, any

unlicensed person makes only lawful sales to persons who reside in the same state).

Bob inherits a collection of firearms from his grandfather. He would rather have cash

than the firearms, so he posts them all online for sale. He makes no purchases, but

over the course of the next year he sells all of the firearms he inherited in a series of

different transactions. Bob does not need a license because he is liquidating a

personal collection.

Joe recently lost his job, and to finance his living expenses he has been buying

firearms from friends and reselling them though an internet site. He has successfully

sold a few firearms this way, and has several more listed for sale at any one time.

Joe must be licensed because he is repetitively buying and selling firearms with the

primary objective of profit.

Sharon travels to flea markets the first Saturday of every month, buying undervalued

goods, including firearms. The last Saturday of every month Sharon rents a booth at

the flea market and sells her items at market value for a profit. She hopes to make

enough money from these sales to finance a trip to Italy next year. Sharon must get

a license because she is repetitively buying and selling firearms with the primary

objective of profit.

David enjoys hunting and has a large variety of hunting rifles. He likes to have the

newest models with the most current features. To pay for his new rifles, a few times a

year David sells his older weapons to fellow hunters for a profit. David does not need

to be licensed because he is engaging in occasional sales for enhancement of his

personal collection.

Lynn regularly travels to gun shows around her state, rents space, and sells firearms

under a banner stating “liquidating personal collection.” Most of the firearms Lynn

offers for sale she purchased from a licensed dealer in the prior weeks. Lynn is retired

and hopes to supplement her income with the money she makes on the sales,

although she has yet to turn a profit. Lynn must get a license because she is repetitively

buying and selling firearms with a primary objective of profit.

8 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Examples (continued)

Scott has been collecting high-end firearms for years. In the six months before his

son is about to enter college, Scott sells most of his collection in a series of transactions

at gun shows, on the Internet, and to family and friends to provide funds to

pay his son’s college expenses. Scott does not have to be licensed, because he is

liquidating part of a personal collection.

Debby has three handguns at home, and decides that she no longer wants two

of them. She posts an advertisement in the local newspaper and sells the two

handguns to a local collector. Debby does not need a license because she is not

engaging in the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms as a regular course of

trade or business.

Jessica enjoys shooting sports and frequently goes to shooting ranges and

hunting clubs. To make some extra money, she buys firearms from a dealer who is

willing to give her a discount, and resells them for a profit to acquaintances from

the shooting ranges and hunting clubs. She has done this a few times a month for

the last several months, and has been spreading the word that she has a source

for other firearms. She passes out business cards with her name, phone number

and email. Jessica must get a license because she is repetitively buying and selling

of firearms with the primary objective of profit.

Doug regularly attends gun shows and rents a table to display firearms for sale. He

gets firearms from a variety of sources, carefully logs each purchase into a book,

and uses the purchase price to set a sales price that will realize him a net profit.

Doug accepts credit card payments and typically sells multiple firearms at each

of the gun shows he attends each year. He makes a substantial amount of money

annually, and uses this money to live on. Doug must be licensed because he is

repetitively buying and selling firearms with the primary objective of profit.

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? 9

Questions & Answers On Getting

A Federal Firearms License

How do I become licensed?

The license application (called the ATF Form 7) is straightforward and can be found

here: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/apply-license. In addition to the application

itself, an applicant for a federal firearms license must also provide to ATF a photograph,

fingerprints, and the license application fee, currently set at $200 for the

initial three-year period, and $90 for each three-year renewal.

What standards does ATF use to determine whether to give me a

license?

ATF will approve an application for a federal firearms license if the applicant:

 Is 21 years of age or older;

 Is not prohibited from shipping, transporting, receiving or possessing firearms or

ammunition;

 Has not willfully violated the GCA or its regulations;

 Has not willfully failed to disclose material information or willfully made false

statements concerning material facts in connection with his application;

 Has a premises for conducting business; and

 The applicant certifies that:

 the business to be conducted under the license is not prohibited by State or

local law in the place where the licensed premises is located;

 within 30 days after the application is approved the business will comply

with the requirements of State and local law applicable to the conduct of the

business;

 the business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of

State and local law applicable to the business have been met;

 the applicant has sent or delivered a form to the chief law enforcement officer

where the premises is located notifying the officer that the applicant intends to

apply for a license; and

 secure gun storage or safety devices will be available at any place in which

firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees.

What obligations will I have once I become licensed?

Licensed firearms dealers are subject to certain requirements under federal law,

including running background checks on any non-licensed person prior to transferring

a firearm (subject to narrow exceptions), keeping firearms transaction records

so that crime guns can be traced to their first retail purchaser, and ensuring safety

locks are provided with every handgun, and available in any location where firearms

are sold.

10 DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS?

Questions & Answers On Getting A

Federal Firearms License (continued)

Licensees are also prohibited by law from knowingly transferring handguns to

persons who do not reside in the State where the licensee’s premises are located,

and from knowingly transferring any firearm to underage persons and certain

categories of “prohibited persons,” including felons, persons who were involuntarily

committed to mental institutions, and illegal aliens. Under federal law,

licensees are subject to inspection and are also required to respond to requests for

firearms tracing information within 24 hours.

This list is not all inclusive; more information about the requirements of

having a federal firearms license can be found at www.ATF.gov and by

contacting your local ATF Office. A list of local offices can be found at

https://www.atf.gov/contact/atf-field-divisions.

What if I don’t need to be licensed, but I want to make sure a

background check is run on a potential purchaser of my gun?

Private, unlicensed sellers can help ensure that potential purchasers are not prohibited

from possessing firearms by using a licensed dealer to facilitate the sale and

transfer of a firearm. For a small fee, many licensed dealers will facilitate a sale of

a firearm between two unlicensed individuals. This service provides both customers

and the community assurance that individuals who want to purchase firearms

undergo a comprehensive background check which helps to ensure the buyer is not

prohibited from possessing a firearm, and can improve the ability of law enforcement

to trace firearms if they are later recovered in a connection with a crime. In

2013, ATF published an open letter (https://www.atf.gov/file/56331/download) to

licensed dealers educating them on how to facilitate private sales, and published

ATF Procedure 2013 – 1 (https://www.atf.gov/file/88181/download), which provides

further guidance. The decision to facilitate private sales is wholly voluntary on the

part of the licensed dealer.

Additional information can be found at www.atf.gov.

U. S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

99 New York Avenue, NE

Washington, DC 20226

ATF Publication 5310.2

January 2016

Edited January 6, 2016 by runco

[R_Bert]

Quote

 

"It is important to note, however, that even

a few firearms transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient

to establish that a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. For

example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as

two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place."

 

Considering the arbitrary and capricious nature of the guidance, and given the serious manner in which the Administration is presenting the EO, it is only logical that every single adult gun owner should apply for a FFL this year.

Edited January 6, 2016 by R_Bert

[m16ty]

 It was pretty hard in the past to get a FFL if you didn't have a storefront. If they are going to require everybody that sales a few guns get a FFL, they are going to have to let everybody that wants one get a FFL.

 

Go ahead and get your FFL. Then you can buy all the guns you want with no background checks. 

 

The down side is all your transactions will be documented by the feds.

[JayC]

Nope all your transactions will be documented for 20 years where you store your records, then you're allowed to destroy them.  As long as you don't retire your FFL you don't turn those records over to the ATF.

 

 It was pretty hard in the past to get a FFL if you didn't have a storefront. If they are going to require everybody that sales a few guns get a FFL, they are going to have to let everybody that wants one get a FFL.

 

Go ahead and get your FFL. Then you can buy all the guns you want with no background checks. 

 

The down side is all your transactions will be documented by the feds.

[Garufa]

 It was pretty hard in the past to get a FFL if you didn't have a storefront. If they are going to require everybody that sales a few guns get a FFL, they are going to have to let everybody that wants one get a FFL.

 

That's not going to happen.

[Lumber_Jack]

so anyone wanna sum up that post for us ADHD folks that cant focus long enough to read that?

[Garufa]

so anyone wanna sum up that post for us ADHD folks that cant focus long enough to read that?

 

It basically clarifies what is already the law.  If you're in the business of selling guns you get a license.

 

For example, those guys you see at every single gun show buying and selling guns who always have tables in the same spot.  They're going to have to get a license as they are obviously "in the business".

[MP5_Rizzo]

What Garufa said and this.

 

Determining whether you are “engaged in the business” of dealing in

firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of

your activities.



"As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and

sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit."

 

Meaning is this your means of financial gain as a living.

 

"In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal

collection, you do not need to be licensed."

 

I know people are going to try and put specific quantities on this as to what occasional sales are but you know good and well if you are making occasional sales or selling guns to make the house note and buy groceries full time.

[NoBanStan]

so anyone wanna sum up that post for us ADHD folks that cant focus long enough to read that?

 

It basically clarifies what is already the law.  If you're in the business of selling guns you get a license.

 

For example, those guys you see at every single gun show buying and selling guns who always have tables in the same spot.  They're going to have to get a license as they are obviously "in the business".

 

and your rights = poop

[LagerHead]

and your rights = poop

 

Not like that's a change.

[NoBanStan]

Not like that's a change.

 

SNAFU comes to mind

[TLRMADE]

It basically clarifies what is already the law. If you're in the business of selling guns you get a license.

For example, those guys you see at every single gun show buying and selling guns who always have tables in the same spot. They're going to have to get a license as they are obviously "in the business".

ADHD here as well. If I was to sell you a gun....do we have to go to the gun store and get a background check and transfer the weapon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[peejman]

ADHD here as well. If I was to sell you a gun....do we have to go to the gun store and get a background check and transfer the weapon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

No, or only if you do it repeatedly and make money in the process.  I'm guessing this targets a couple groups of people....

 

1) guys who show up at every gun show with a table full of guns to sell but don't have an FFL;

 

2) guys effectively doing the same thing on armslist, gunbroker, etc. 

 

They'll be trolling guns shows and online looking for the same people selling a bunch of guns on a routine basis.  How many gunsis too many and how often is too often?  No idea.  I'd presume the ATF already has some guidelines for such things. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by peejman

[Oh Shoot]

....

 

They'll be trolling guns shows and online looking for the same people selling a bunch of guns on a routine basis.  How many gunsis too many and how often is too often?  No idea.  I'd presume the ATF already has some guidelines for such things. 

 

If they wanted to do that, or if they had the manpower to do that, they'd already be doing it. Maybe the whopping 200 extra agents BHO wants to hire will be a task force to do that. 

 

Thing is, it's gonna take more than just identifying frequent sellers, they have to somehow get the dirt on where the money goes. That's why it's so seldom prosecuted.

 

Usually on the few cases I've ever seen, it comes about after they find guns during various other investigations, arrests, or raids, then people cop where they got them, and if several are from same seller, then they turn the sights on him.

 

And remember, not much if any help from the state on this one here -- even though TN says you need federal license to sell guns, I can find no state penalty for violating that.

 

- OS

[Fourtyfive]

I don't recall the last time I sold a gun FOR A PROFIT, always a loss involved......

[Oh Shoot]

I don't recall the last time I sold a gun FOR A PROFIT, always a loss involved......

 

Yeah, even though making a profit on a single, or even multiple, guns isn't the sole test of being "engaged in the business", being able to document an overall loss would seem to be a rock solid defense.

 

- OS

[TGO David]

Here's the simple take on the whole selling guns as a business thing:  It was this way before Obama opened his mouth on Monday, and was just as vague then as it is now in respect to how many guns sold makes you a business.

 

Nothing is any different.

 

I haven't read all of the stuff that Fox News has apparently provided, but I consider them as reliable a source of information about gun laws as I do them a reliable source of unbiased news.  I'd take whatever they produce with a grain of salt and go hunt down information from the source.  The BATFE link is a good place to begin.  Beyond that I'm looking for guidance from the NRA, GOA and other Second Amendment powerhouses.

[midtennchip]

From all I have seen, these FFL "clarifications" will not affect the average gun owner.  If you have a gun in your own collection that you decide you don't want, there should be no reason you cannot still sell that gun without having to conduct a background check.  Same as it has been for years.  Most of us have nothing to worry about.

 

However, the things that do concern me are the AG's statements regarding the Justice Department's intent to prosecute some "marginal cases" (in the words of the AG).  I would expect somewhere in the next 12 months to see some guy arrested and charged who has sold a few guns at a gun show (or multiple gun shows) or has posted multiple guns for sale on the internet (since that seems to be a big issue for this Administration).  I suspect the AG intends to push the limit of this and make an example of somebody.  

 

Ultimately, it is the "facts and circumstances" issue.  Very similar to trying to define justified self-defense.  There is no bright line.  The closer you get to the gray area, the more risk you take.  The more guns you sell, the worse it looks.  The more times to sell (i.e., you sold gun or guns at multiple gun shows), the worse it looks.  Best bet is to stay away from that gray area as best you can.  One gun here and there shouldn't be an issue.

[JayC]

Seems to me, that you can still sell 100's of guns a year, not need an FFL, as long as all the purchases are to 'improve you personal collection of firearms'....  I really don't think this changes anything...  

 

1. Don't get business cards that say you're a gun dealer if you don't have an FFL :)

2. Don't take credit cards, cash is king - because the ATF wants to encourage you not to have any method to trace somebody who bought a firearm from you ;)

3. Don't sell guns to make money to live off of without an FFL

4. If you want to sell a firearm online make sure to add to the post why you're changing your personal collection, how you did or didn't like the gun, how you need the money for some other gun you really want to buy, or how you want to improve your collection ;)

5. Finally, if you go down to the local gun store and buy 10 Glock 19's and try to sell them for a profit, you're probably a gun dealer and need to get an FFL - duhhh

 

Yeah, even though making a profit on a single, or even multiple, guns isn't the sole test of being "engaged in the business", being able to document an overall loss would seem to be a rock solid defense.

 

- OS

Edited January 6, 2016 by JayC

[Dave Keenom]

For every 20 I buy I might sell one and only because I upgraded so I guess I am good.

[runco]

I have not traded or sold any in over 20+ years, however I do like to buy from the used market from time to time.  Though to me there is nothing new in the EO about dealers and who needs a FFL, it will scare the uninformed law abiding citizen and make them think twice about selling.  There goes my sources and my deals!

[peejman]

If they wanted to do that, or if they had the manpower to do that, they'd already be doing it. Maybe the whopping 200 extra agents BHO wants to hire will be a task force to do that.

Thing is, it's gonna take more than just identifying frequent sellers, they have to somehow get the dirt on where the money goes. That's why it's so seldom prosecuted.

Usually on the few cases I've ever seen, it comes about after they find guns during various other investigations, arrests, or raids, then people cop where they got them, and if several are from same seller, then they turn the sights on him.

And remember, not much if any help from the state on this one here -- even though TN says you need federal license to sell guns, I can find no state penalty for violating that.

- OS

I assumed gun show and online trolling was the whole point of the half billion tax dollar expense.

As for following the money, my guess is they'll do the standard gestapo thing and threaten/charge anyone they can find minimal evidence on and hope the individual isnt willing/able to afford to defend themselves in court so they plea down and it still goes as a win in their column.

[Hershmeister]

One has to wonder how these gun show only "dealers" obtain their firearms with enough of a discount since they are not getting dealer pricing from wholesalers to actually be profitable after accounting for the costs of booth rent and time?

But maybe i missed that day in mba class.....

[Chucktshoes]

From all I have seen, these FFL "clarifications" will not affect the average gun owner. If you have a gun in your own collection that you decide you don't want, there should be no reason you cannot still sell that gun without having to conduct a background check. Same as it has been for years. Most of us have nothing to worry about.

However, the things that do concern me are the AG's statements regarding the Justice Department's intent to prosecute some "marginal cases" (in the words of the AG). I would expect somewhere in the next 12 months to see some guy arrested and charged who has sold a few guns at a gun show (or multiple gun shows) or has posted multiple guns for sale on the internet (since that seems to be a big issue for this Administration). I suspect the AG intends to push the limit of this and make an example of somebody.


Ultimately, it is the "facts and circumstances" issue. Very similar to trying to define justified self-defense. There is no bright line. The closer you get to the gray area, the more risk you take. The more guns you sell, the worse it looks. The more times to sell (i.e., you sold gun or guns at multiple gun shows), the worse it looks. Best bet is to stay away from that gray area as best you can. One gun here and there shouldn't be an issue.

I can think of a user or two here that may want to seriously consider getting his FFL. Not to put anyone on blast, but it might be time for some CYA cause I don't wanna read about one of our members getting perp walked down at the federal building.

[Garufa]

I wonder if they don't give TN some extra scrutiny with all those new agents. Bloomberg has been advising his majesty and his spies did catch a few well-publicized, questionable sales at a Nashville show a few years ago. Edited January 8, 2016 by Garufa