Colt 1911 Super .38

[quedz]

Anyone know the last year Colt manufactured the Super .38? Also, can .38 Super ammo be fired in these?

Thanks

Edited December 22, 2015 by hughd

[R1100R]

I just looked at a new one on the Fort the other day ($1000.00) in .38 super. The quality in fit and finish was just not that good.

 

 They are still made in .38 Super. The Super .38 was the name of the pistol that fired the old .38ACP

 

http://38super.net/Pages/History.html

Edited December 22, 2015 by R1100R

[quickbiscuit]

Try not to get caught up in all the drivel and semantics on the history page of 38super.net. There's some good information on that site, but I don't agree with the spin that he put on the cartridge's introduction. That guy has a Ph.D. and seems to think that makes him more correct than anyone else. Typical of those in academia.

Hughd - are you wanting to know the last year Colt rollmarked a pistol "Super .38"?

As pointed out above, Colt is still producing 1911s chambered in 38 Super. Dimensionally, the .38 Automatic (ACP) and the .38 Super Automatic are the same. The .38 Automatic was created over 30 years before Colt started chambering the 1911 in .38. The Model 1900 and Model 1903 pocket hammer were chambered in the .38 Automatic. Early automatics like these are not made to withstand the higher pressure of the .38 Super.

The 1911 chambered in .38 Super from 1929 on can handle any standard factory load you buy today. Early models are very valuable and do not have slides that are adequately heat treated. Shooting them should be kept at a minimum for that reason alone.

[MP5_Rizzo]

Looks like 1971 was the last production year by Colt.

 

http://www.coltautos.com/1911a1_Super38pd.htm

[quickbiscuit]

Looks like 1971 was the last production year by Colt.
 
http://www.coltautos.com/1911a1_Super38pd.htm

1971 was the year that all calibers got lumped into the "Series 70" designation. That shouldn't be interpreted as the last year for a 38 Super chambering.

[MP5_Rizzo]

1971 was the year that all calibers got lumped into the "Series 70" designation. That shouldn't be interpreted as the last year for a 38 Super chambering.

I see that now.  It looks like Series 80's have been made up to the year 20XX?

[quickbiscuit]

I see that now.  It looks like Series 80's have been made up to the year 20XX?

They are still being made. I just picked up a new Special Combat Government in .38 Super last week. The "1991" pistols are all Series 80 guns. The standard 38 Super model made today by Colt is the O2991.

[Grayfox54]

The actual name of the cartridge is Colt Super 38 Automatic. Over the years its been shorten and readily accepted as the 38 Super. Even ammo makers and some gun makers label the round as 38 Super. 

The 38 Super is basically a hot loading of the old 38 acp cartridge with more velocity and pressure. The two rounds are dimensionally  identical. You can shoot 38 acp ammo in a 38 Super. However,  NEVER shoot 38 Super ammo in a gun made for the 38acp. These guns were not designed to handle the pressure of the Super cartridge. In fact, the original loading of the 38 acp, which was very close to the Super, ended up being watered down as the guns for it at that time couldn't handle the pressure. 

Generally speaking, the 38 Super fires a 130gr FMJ bullet at roughly 1300fps. When folks unfamiliar with the cartridge ask about mine, I simply say think of it as a 9mm on steroids. :rolleyes: 

Unfortunately, Colt decided to headspace the cartridge on its tiny semi-rim which led to poor accuracy. I believe it was in the 1960s that custom barrel maker Bar-Sto discovered that by headspacing the round on the case mouth, like almost every other semi-auto cartridge, accuracy greatly improved. Not long after, most makers of 38 Super guns began to do the same. But not Colt, as they have always been extremely stubborn about admitting their mistakes.  It wasn't until the Series 80 1911 that Colt changed the headspacing. If you buy an older Colt in 38 Super, don't expect it to be a tack driver. Most owners of these older guns replace the barrel first thing.  :wall:

Another issue is that the correct bullet diameter of the Super is .356. Many of the ammo makers simply load their 38 Super ammo using their .355 9mm bullets. These may or may not prove to be accurate in your gun. Just depends on the individual pistol.  :shrug:

Remington does make a .356 FMJ bullet for their loads and sells them separately  for reloading. These are what I use. I also have a friend who owns a bullet casting company. He makes up his 124gr LRN hard cast 9mm bullet and sizes them to .357 for me. These have worked exceptionally well in my guns. 

Despite its quirks and once you know about them, the 38 Super is an outstanding round. I'm a big fan.  :clap:

. 

 

 

 

[leroy]

I'm a 38 super affectionado... Got a series seventy in honored retirement... They are a great pistola... Grayfox54's excellent post above pretty well sums up the 38 super story...  They were the original "magnum" auto pistol cartridge... They are flat shooters with low recoil in the full size gubmt models... There is a lot to like about the 38 super if ya handload... My 357 sig glocks do the duty the super once did... Think of the 38 super as a 357 sig and ya wont be far off the mark...

 

leroy

[quedz]

 Hughd - are you wanting to know the last year Colt rollmarked a pistol "Super .38"?

 

Yes, and if all of these (1911) marked as such are .38 ACP only...

 

edit = (1911)

Edited December 23, 2015 by hughd

[Grayfox54]

Colt made the Models 1900, 1902 and 1903 Pocket Hammer in .38 acp.  AFAIK, Colt's 1911 has only been chambered in Super 38. and they do still make them. 

All Colt barrels are marked as to caliber in the chamber area and is visible through the ejection port with the slide closed. Caliber roll marks on the slide kind of come and go. Some are marked and some aren't. I'm afraid you would need someone more knowledgeable than me to get a definitive answer.

May I ask what brought you to this particular question?

[quedz]

Grayfox54, I was recently shown a nice pre-war (1911 roll marked Super .38) and asked to do some research on it.  I will double check, but I do not think the caliber was marked on the barrel. Thus the confusion regarding the Super .38 roll mark and .38 ACP vs .38 Supper ammo. Also,is .38 Super ammo called Super .38 as well?

PS check out the link R1100R posted. :shrug:

[Grayfox54]

Yes, 38 Super and Super 38 are the same cartridge. As I said before, the actual name is Colt Super 38 Automatic. Although these days I believe only Colt still insists on calling it Super 38. Just about everyone else in the world refers to it as the 38 Super. But they are the same cartridge. 

A pre-war Colt Super 38 eh? Cool!  :clap: In any kind of decent shape, you've got some serious money there. I'd love to see some pictures. 

BTW: if you can provide a serial number, I'll try to look up the year it was made for you.

Edited December 23, 2015 by Grayfox54

[quickbiscuit]

There's some bad information getting tossed around here...making things more confusing than they should be...

"Colt Super 38 Automatic" is the name of a specific gun model, not the name of a cartridge. The CIP designation is 38 Super Automatic. SAAMI refers to it as the 38 Super Automatic +P. Commonly, it's just the "38 Super".

hughd - as I've already said, the .38 Automatic (ACP) and .38 Super Automatic are dimensionally the same cartridge. The difference is that the .38 Super is loaded to pressures of 10,000 psi higher (sometimes more) than the .38 Automatic. All 1911 pistols from 1929 on can and are designed to safely fire .38 Super ammunition. The 1911 is a stronger design than the old automatics that were chambered in .38 ACP.

Colt serial numbers 1 - 37,834 are considered "Pre-war" models. The "Super .38 Automatic" rollmark and the rampant Colt will be on the right side of the slide. After WWII production of the Super ramped up again in 1947, and the serial numbers started at 40,001. These models will have the "Super .38 Automatic" and rampant Colt rollmark on the left side of the slide.

The last Colt chambered in .38 Super to have "Super .38 Automatic" rollmarked anywhere on the slide would have been around 1971 when all existing models were rolled into the "Series 70" designation. Series 70 models and after were marked simply ".38 Super Auto Caliber" or ".38 Super Caliber" on the slide. "Super .38 Automatic" was the model of the pistol, not the cartridge name. This is explained by the changes in the Series 70 pistols. The "Super .38 Automatic" model was no more, but Colt still chambered the Series 70 pistol in .38 Super caliber. They all shoot the same cartridge from 1929 to today.

Pre-war models are not marked "Colt Super 38 Auto" on the top of the barrel at the ejection port. That started at 40,001, and they are still marked like this today. Edited December 23, 2015 by quickbiscuit

[Grayfox54]

Well, I never claimed to be any kind of Colt expert.  All the fine details of roll marks and exact dates are beyond me.  :shrug: 

Quickbiscuit to the rescue.  :up:

 Its good to know that somebody around here knows more than me.  ;)

[quedz]

Grayfox54, Thanks for the help and the offer.

[quedz]

 quickbiscuit, I think that just about does it, don't it! Thank you for the information.

 

Oh, as Columbo would say:  "Just one more thing" So, the original 1911 Super .38 was chambered for the .38 ACP but it is safe to fire .38  Super in it...

[quickbiscuit]

The pistol, then and now, is intended for a hotter loading of the .38 Automatic. You can take whatever position you like on it. I don't buy into all the fluff on 38super.net. There was never an issue surrounding the 38 Super until that write up started circulating around the Internet. I think it's poorly written and makes a big deal about nothing, much like his article on the "9mm Automatic."

But let's clear up one thing - if you have a pre-war Colt in your possession, it shouldn't be fired at all! As mentioned by others, the Supers are particularly valuable.

[quedz]

10-4  Thanks for the input and the PM offer.

R/S hughd