ATF Copying 4473 information in bulk

[FreedomGunCo]

I have read about a few FFLs that hare having 4473 information copied in bulk during their compliance inspection with no rhyme or reason.  Every 4473 being entered into spreadsheets, buyer name, address, and make model and serial # of gun.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[rmiddle]

I have read about a few FFLs that hare having 4473 information copied in bulk during their compliance inspection with no rhyme or reason.  Every 4473 being entered into spreadsheets, buyer name, address, and make model and serial # of gun.

 

Thoughts?

 

Sounds like Obamo is attempting to work around the law.  I have found many Liberal in office tend to care very little for the actual law.

 

Thanks

Robert

[Trekbike]

I have read about a few FFLs that hare having 4473 information copied in bulk during their compliance inspection with no rhyme or reason. Every 4473 being entered into spreadsheets, buyer name, address, and make model and serial # of gun.

Thoughts?

Source?

[runco]

If accurate and true, and is based upon a broader plan to involve all FFL, though I don't like it, and I hope pro gun organizations lobby to stop, but to take a ole democrat line I once heard...............The only thing we have to fear is fear itself, but O on the other hand is a different fear.

Edited December 19, 2015 by runco

[TMF]

I have read about a few FFLs that hare having 4473 information copied in bulk during their compliance inspection with no rhyme or reason. Every 4473 being entered into spreadsheets, buyer name, address, and make model and serial # of gun.

Thoughts?

Thoughts? With 100,000,000 new purchases in the past decade, my thoughts would be that they have their work cut out for them if they're going to go through all that paperwork.

[DaveTN]

copied in bulk during their compliance inspection
Thoughts?

Sounds like BS to me. If they were going to do it they would just have the FFL submit it.

[wileecoyote]

I personally know a former FFL that had this happen 3 times during his license period, which he ended up turning in the license on the last time because they were threatening to heavily fine him for every minor detail or mistake they could find. I personally inspected his books and forms and saw that everything was in good general order, no funny business. He would occasionally miss transcribing one or two words from the sales receipt to the 4473, but in those cases he had the info stapled or clipped to the form and had followed all the laws and checks, so it was just a few trivial paperwork details that they used as an excuse to copy all of his records, several times over a dozen years, and then eventually force him out of business.

[K191145]

Thoughts? With 100,000,000 new purchases in the past decade, my thoughts would be that they have their work cut out for them if they're going to go through all that paperwork.

 

Yes, they have at least 4 secretary's going through all those copies filing them on discs. The job should be completed in 4615 at least.  :)  I think i'll be dead then.

[btq96r]

Seems the Jade Helm budget didn't include money for a digital scanner.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk, because I felt that Oh Shoot wanted to know that particular bit of information.

[TMF]

Seems the Jade Helm budget didn't include money for a digital scanner.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk, because I felt that Oh Shoot wanted to know that particular bit of information.

 

Well, they have to pay a few million analysts to listen in on every single phone call made by gun owners in Texas.  Not much left in the budget after that.

[Ugly]

Perhaps this will be a jobs program for the hundreds of thousands of "refugees" and illegals.

The law hasn't stopped much in the last several years, I would bet that this data accumulation has been going on for many, many years. Of course it'll be innacurate and riddled with errors but hey, it's the government and they are there to help.
Budget? Hahahaha, that means nothing anymore!

[Omega]

Don't underestimate the available technology, records can be scanned and OCR software used to import data into fields.  There are commercial scanners available that are used to import business cards, receipts, etc., I imagine there are better ones available to government and large businesses that can accomplish this rather quickly.

[Metalhead]

Just audited by ATF. No copies of 4473's were had.

[TMF]

Don't underestimate the available technology, records can be scanned and OCR software used to import data into fields. There are commercial scanners available that are used to import business cards, receipts, etc., I imagine there are better ones available to government and large businesses that can accomplish this rather quickly.

They don't magically scan themselves though. And having used those high speed technologies the government uses to scan things and automatically import it into tables was more trouble than it was worth.

Even with the best technology to scan and import all that data "automatically", people still need to do it. Do you know what 20 years worth of gun purchases in the US looks like? I'm not losing sleep over this one either.

[Trekbike]

I've had several LGS go out of business that I purchased from so that makes their database build go much easier.

I'm also not buying the daliy dump of info from background checks. Nope, not buying it.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

[runco]

Scanning is old technology, one should worry about the microchip that secret government satellites can detect the location and listen in on!  :tinfoil:  :panic:

[wileecoyote]

I'm also not buying the daliy dump of info from background checks. Nope, not buying it.

^^^This.

They don't need to scan anything. They already keep permanent digital records of every firearm serial number, make, and model manufactured and transferred along with the dealer that transferred it, and date transferred. Anyone that believes that they don't also keep the NAME and (DL or SSN) of the recipients along with all of that data is a fool. Just like those who refused to believe in the government illegally monitoring / wiretapping mass phone calls until Snowden exposed some of the proof.

Those who would give up essential liberties for safety will get neither, but this won't stop our liberal government from taking away the liberties. Edited December 19, 2015 by wileecoyote

[FreedomGunCo]

source is another FFL on FFLsonly.com

[Randall53]

Well, IMO, the government should be worried about stopping illegal drugs which is what they should be spending all this time and money on. I went to see a friend in rehab a week ago and he said it's all over the place and easy to find, and in all of our schools. I saw a local town in Tennessee had a drug roundup the other day and they arrested 16 people at the end of a year long probe. 16 is all they got out of a year long investigation. I guess I just don't understand how hard it is to do drug enforcement, but that just doesn't seem to be much bang for the buck if drugs are such a pandemic on our streets. 

[MP5_Rizzo]

 Just like those who refused to believe in the government illegally monitoring / wiretapping mass phone calls until Snowden exposed some of the proof.

Those who would give up essential liberties for safety will get neither, but this won't stop our liberal government from taking away the liberties.

 

Illegal wiretapping and or intercepting any communication that is intended to be private between two or more parties aside.  I seem to remember in El Prezidente Barrys final press conference of the year (of which I only heard small snippets of) he mentioned that there will be more aggressive monitoring of social media, forums, blogs and so on by HLS, NSA or whatever known or unknown government agencies to head off any future terrorist attacks.   I don't consider myself in the tin hat club and I don't avoid social media for fear of big brother.  Obviously I do  participate on some  gun related forums and TGO being my favorite and the one I'm most active on.  Over the years I have caught myself rewording or even deleting comments based on how the text could be manipulated or misconstrued and possibly raise an eyebrow even though I had no malicious intent and was referencing totally legal activity.  I have heard and read articles that they utilize the ability to monitor based on trigger or key words and I know that this is basic technology these days.   Am I alone in this or has anyone else given it any thought when posting or making a comment on the interwebz?  I Can't wait to see the comments on this one and what possible direction it will go!  I firmly believe there are some people here that have as much or more of a warped sense of humor as myself.

 

Any U.S. governmental agency employee monitoring this for the purpose of national security, Merry Christmas to you and yours! :usa:

[wileecoyote]

There's lots of reasons to be cautious about what you post online.

Nearly all major employers now do a search and/or pay for a background check service that includes social media search results, because they don't want to hire a nut like Leonard Embody which might initially show a reasonably clean employment record with no formal criminal history or felonies but is otherwise a loose cannon / risk due to extreme or radical social behavior.

Also, many employers can terminate you for having a negative or undesirable social profile which would reflect badly on their company or brand, especially those who are employed at will.

Then there's the possibility of data being used against you later, such as when you are defending a justifiable use of self defense but the prosecution or civil attorney creates a chart of all your colorful comments taken completely out of context.

And then there's general privacy: the more data you share results in a lower overall level of personal privacy and security which could have very negative impacts on your family and friends.

So it's just prudent to remain anonymous and limit / filter what you post and share, even offline. Edited December 19, 2015 by wileecoyote

[Oh Shoot]

I personally know a former FFL that had this happen 3 times during his license period, which he ended up turning in the license on the last time because they were threatening to heavily fine him for every minor detail or mistake they could find. I personally inspected his books and forms and saw that everything was in good general order, no funny business. He would occasionally miss transcribing one or two words from the sales receipt to the 4473, but in those cases he had the info stapled or clipped to the form and had followed all the laws and checks, so it was just a few trivial paperwork details that they used as an excuse to copy all of his records, several times over a dozen years, and then eventually force him out of business.

 

Well, there aren't very many things the dealer has to put on the 4473, and all pretty simple, so if he was leaving any of them out, I could see why they'd get upset with an audit. Perhaps it was his bound book he wasn't completing correctly.
 

.....

They don't need to scan anything. They already keep permanent digital records of every firearm serial number, make, and model manufactured and transferred along with the dealer that transferred it, and date transferred. Anyone that believes that they don't also keep the NAME and (DL or SSN) of the recipients along with all of that data is a fool. ..

 
NICS only gets the type of firearm (long gun/hand gun/other firearm), not the rest of the firearm detail. A POC (primary point of contact) state like TN does not have to collect the additional firearm data either, but TICS demands that info by state law, so if you want to worry about a database with that info, worry about the state of TN.
 
- OS

Edited December 19, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

NICS doesn't receive the model or s/n of the firearm so without the matching 4473 it does them no good.

 

^^^This.

They don't need to scan anything. They already keep permanent digital records of every firearm serial number, make, and model manufactured and transferred along with the dealer that transferred it, and date transferred. Anyone that believes that they don't also keep the NAME and (DL or SSN) of the recipients along with all of that data is a fool. Just like those who refused to believe in the government illegally monitoring / wiretapping mass phone calls until Snowden exposed some of the proof.

Those who would give up essential liberties for safety will get neither, but this won't stop our liberal government from taking away the liberties.

 

[Trekbike]

NICS doesn't receive the model or s/n of the firearm so without the matching 4473 it does them no good.

Correct, but it does indicate you bought a gun(s). That makes confiscation one step easier for the jackboots if it ever comes to that.