new ebr optics suggestions needed

[deerslayer]

Picked up a Smith ORC M4 (no front or rear sights). What I would like to do is find a 1-3 or 1-4 compact scope, possibly with an illuminated circle-type reticle, like the Millett DMS http://www.millettsights.com/controller.php/catalog/tactical_dms

My problem is that I hate the way they usually have to be mounted so far forward. I never got over my childhood hatred of the texture of raw vegetables, either. Go figure. I may settle for an Eotech or Aimpoint and and good set of BUIS, but what I'd like to find is a DMS-style scope in a shorter package. I definitely want the CQB-utility of a true 1X sight, but the optional magnification would be nice. I've been on other forums snooping around, and the only other option I've found is Leupold's CQ/T. I've read good and bad opinions from users about it, but at $800-900, I'm a bit reluctant to pull the trigger. Anybody got a similar setup?

[Sheepdog]

If you want a scope that will give you rapid target acquisition with a wide field of view at close range, yet will also provide magnification for longer-range engagements, I'd recommend the Trijicon ACOG models with the BAC (Bindon Aiming Concept) setup.

3x Model

4x Model

Yeah, pricey. But if you've got a C&R FFL, you can sign up for dealer pricing at Midway, and get a pretty good discount on the 4x model. You can also probably find them cheaper elsewhere, if you look around enough.

I've got the 4x model on my AR. While it doesn't provide enough magnification to give me dime-sized groups at 100 yards, I think it's a great compromise between a precision scope and a "combat" optic. At close range, you keep both of your eyes open, and you see a glowing red dot (or donut, triangle, or chevron...whichever reticle you choose) superimposed on your near-field vision. When you "lock on" to a target, your vision automatically switches to the magnified view for more precise shot placement.

I've tried the Leupold, and it's not bad. But I do think the Trijicon is better. And it doesn't require batteries.

Also, the EOTech is nice. I've got a couple of those on order for my daughters' ARs--young eyes don't need the magnification. Magnifiers are available for the EOTech, but if you go with the 4x magnifier with the side-flip mount, you'll go way over the cost of the ACOG, for a solution which requires batteries and has moving parts which can break, and would be slow to mess with in a SHTF situation.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Sheepdog
Added info.

[Daniel]

the 4x acog

Dealer Price: $899.99

Retail Price: $1,076.95

[deerslayer]

$wow$

Isn't the ACOG a fixed power scope, though?

[Daniel]

yes

[Sheepdog]

$wow$

Isn't the ACOG a fixed power scope, though?

Yes, it's a fixed power scope. But when you're using the ACOG, either scanning for targets or moving with the rifle welded to your cheek, your left eye will be dominant, giving you, effectively, 1x magnification and a wide field of view. The reticle will still be visible, and will be superimposed on (or near, depending on the range) the point of impact.

As soon as you focus on a target, however, your right eye becomes dominant and, looking through the scope, your view is instantly magnified 4x, and the position of the reticle on the target doesn't change.

Making the switch between one eye and another does take a little bit of practice, but it is pretty instinctive and easily mastered. So although the scope is fixed power, it is effectively a 1x/4x optic that is controlled by your brain. How cool is that?

All bets are off, of course, if you only have one eye...

Oh, and by the way, the ACOG does have a bullet drop compensator built into the reticle, for shots out to 1000 yards. It is calibrated, I believe, for 55gr bullets leaving the barrel at ~3000 ft/sec. Of course, at 4x and that bullet weight, you're probably not going to be taking a lot of shots at 1000 yards. However, closer in, and with other bullet weights, I'm sure the scope will be plenty accurate for social engagements.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Sheepdog
Added more stuff again.

[deerslayer]

Thanks for the info. I shoot with both eyes open all the time--pistol, rifle, irons sights, 9X scope, whatever. I see what you're saying about transitioning between eyes, but it does seem tricky. What advantage does the ACOG offer over other 4X scopes? In other words, why can't you do this with all scopes?

[Sheepdog]

Thanks for the info. I shoot with both eyes open all the time--pistol, rifle, irons sights, 9X scope, whatever. I see what you're saying about transitioning between eyes, but it does seem tricky. What advantage does the ACOG offer over other 4X scopes? In other words, why can't you do this with all scopes?

Because the BAC is patented by Trijicon, and using it with another scope is a form of piracy.

Okay, not really.

To be perfectly honest, the Bindon Aiming Concept is more of a skill than a feature of the scope. It can be done with other magnified and illuminated optics. However, Trijicon has done a few things to make the skill easier to learn and use with their scopes.

The first thing is the light pipe--an optic fiber that takes ambient light and concentrates it in the reticle image. The dot is, under most conditions, very bright against the target, and provides excellent contrast. (I'm talking about the red reticles, here. Amber is available; I've not used that color, but because it doesn't provide as much contrast as red, I don't expect the BAC would work as well with it. The Leupold Mk4, by the way, uses an illuminated amber reticle.)

The second thing is the shape of the reticle, or at least the illuminated part of it. It's small and centered, drawing your gaze through the center of the scope. The Leupold reticle is a larger illuminated circle surrounding an illuminated dot. To me, it seemed more "busy" than the single focus of the ACOG.

The third thing is that the ACOG has a larger objective lens than the Leupold Mk4 (which is actually just 3x, max), which gives you a brighter picture through the scope with a wider field of view, making the transition between non-magnified and magnified sight pictures easier.

(Disclaimer: the points I made above are just my opinions and may, in fact, be based entirely on the Trijicon Fanboyism that is included in the price of the scope. I'm trying to be objective, through, and that really is the way I think the ACOGs work.)

I've not had a chance to use the EOTech with a magnifier, so I don't know how that setup would compare, as far as the optics alone go.

Nor have I used the Aimpoint scopes, which again, are all 1x, with an optional 3x magnifier. (You'd also need the 3x magnifier mount, which is an additional, and in my opinion, exorbitant, expense.)

These setups may work as well, or better, than the Trijicon--but you'll still have the issues of batteries, multiple parts, extra bulk and weight, and higher overall cost than the ACOG.

An additional note about the Leupold Mk4 is that it appears to have a rail on the top of the scope. This may allow the mounting of a Docter sight which, if you keep the scope dialed up to 3x, would give you faster close target acquisition (all 1x red dot sights will be faster, because you don't need to take the time to transition from one eye to the other). However again, I don't think the cost is worth it.

[deerslayer]

Ok, that all makes more sense. I'm still scratching my head, trying to figure out if I really want to spend $900+ on a sight--the 1X red dots like Eotechs and Aimpoints are tempting. Hell, I may go with the forward mounted Millett, who knows. I really appreciate you taking the time to answer me and deal with my ignorance on these sights (my other ARs all have strictly iron sights). This latest relapse of EBR disease is going to be a b*tch.

[gsbell]

I've got an Eotech right now and only use my AR for games. I'd like to switch it up and go with a Burris XTR-14. I need some magnfication 1X just isn't doing it for me.

[Guest db99wj]

Picked up a Smith ORC M4 (no front or rear sights). What I would like to do is find a 1-3 or 1-4 compact scope, possibly with an illuminated circle-type reticle, like the Millett DMS http://www.millettsights.com/controller.php/catalog/tactical_dms

My problem is that I hate the way they usually have to be mounted so far forward. I never got over my childhood hatred of the texture of raw vegetables, either. Go figure. I may settle for an Eotech or Aimpoint and and good set of BUIS, but what I'd like to find is a DMS-style scope in a shorter package. I definitely want the CQB-utility of a true 1X sight, but the optional magnification would be nice. I've been on other forums snooping around, and the only other option I've found is Leupold's CQ/T. I've read good and bad opinions from users about it, but at $800-900, I'm a bit reluctant to pull the trigger. Anybody got a similar setup?

Did you get one of those crazy low price deals at Sportmans Warehouse over the weekend? I so almost went into more debt, risked divorce wanting to go get one of those

[molonlabetn]

What about an EoTech 557 with a flip-to-side 4X magnifier? That's what I intend to put on the FS2000 I hope to own within a few weeks...

[poak]

If you can swing it $$-wise, the ACOG is tough to beat...

[Magiccarpetrides]

I have an Eotech 552 and love it...I also have a 3x Acog with amber Chevron and its the cats meow. You can't go wrong either way, but if you want to keep both eyes open and magnification is a must the ACOG is the only way to go. I got mine as an open box special for $850 about a year ago. There was a 4x in the Chattanooga classifieds a couple months back that mousegunner regularly posts up for only $550 used...I wish I woulda bought it. If you can find an Acog at that price its a no brainer.

[deerslayer]

Did you get one of those crazy low price deals at Sportmans Warehouse over the weekend? I so almost went into more debt, risked divorce wanting to go get one of those

Edited December 2, 2008 by deerslayer

[Sheepdog]

Did you get one of those crazy low price deals at Sportmans Warehouse over the weekend? I so almost went into more debt, risked divorce wanting to go get one of those

Just tell her what I'll tell my wife when she finds out.

"But honey, it's for the children..."

Mine in the middle, flanked by my daughters' Christmas presents. Still waiting on a couple of EOTech 512s to put on them.

Of course, this will be totally indefensible...

M1A SOCOM 16 on the left, and my Colt, again, on the right.

Both have ACOGs mounted--6x and 4x, respectively. I had no idea the 6x would be so huge.

Wifey knows about my AR. She'll find out about the kids' ARs on Christmas. And she still hasn't seen the M1A...because, y'know, I figure she's not really interested in that kind of thing...

So yeah, Deerslayer...you may have a bitchin' case of of EBR fever. Mine, though, may be fatal .