Pending Gun EO Chatter, Update See Post #114

[Hozzie]

In reality, he isn't changing anything on background checks.  This is nothing more than facetime.  

 

I will admit, I see the same guys at gunshows all of the time with tables who are obviously trying to make money and have personal collection on their tables.  While it may be for a hobby, I do think it skirts the intent of the law.  If you can go to a gun show every weekend and get a table to sell guns, I think you are in the business of selling guns.  

 

For the normal Joe Schmoe who walks around with a single gun, nothing changes.

[mikegideon]

In reality, he isn't changing anything on background checks.  This is nothing more than facetime.  

 

I will admit, I see the same guys at gunshows all of the time with tables who are obviously trying to make money and have personal collection on their tables.  While it may be for a hobby, I do think it skirts the intent of the law.  If you can go to a gun show every weekend and get a table to sell guns, I think you are in the business of selling guns.  

 

 

IFIK, that was always illegal. Just wasn't enforced. This is toothless crap.

[GlockSpock]

In reality, he isn't changing anything on background checks.  This is nothing more than facetime.  

 

I will admit, I see the same guys at gunshows all of the time with tables who are obviously trying to make money and have personal collection on their tables.  While it may be for a hobby, I do think it skirts the intent of the law.  If you can go to a gun show every weekend and get a table to sell guns, I think you are in the business of selling guns.  

 

For the normal Joe Schmoe who walks around with a single gun, nothing changes.

 

I would bet $5 that within the next week (probably today if I converse with enough people), at least one person mentions to me that Obama closed the "loophole" and what I think about it, etc.

 

Realistically, I feel like this whole spectacle is about giving the impression that he has tightened things up and restricted freedoms closed loopholes. The average Joe will think something has changed, your coworkers will have in their mind that you have to go through an FFL and get a background check to buy something, and then years or decades down the road when everything thinks that is just the way it is then it will actually happen.

[GlockSpock]

To further complicate things, what about the following scenario:

 

Joe goes and purchases a few firearms that are a good deal. He routinely purchases firearms from his coworkers who need cash and offer them to him at a discount. He sells via the internet and at gun shows regularly. However, for every purchase and sell he makes he meets at a local FFL and a background check is ran on the buyer. Does he need to be licensed?

 

TAX EVASION!

Edited January 5, 2016 by CZ9MM

[CJDore]

If I heard BO correctly....ANYONE that sell firearms will have to be an FFL and conduct background checks. My question is this.....Do I need to be an FFL in order to sell my shotgun to my brother-in-law?

 

Does this all but shutdown the Firearms classified at this site?

Edited January 5, 2016 by CJDore

[TripleDigitRide]

If I heard BO correctly....ANYONE that sell firearms will have to be an FFL and conduct background checks. My question is this.....Do I need to be an FFL in order to sell my shotgun to my brother-in-law?

You did not hear correctly.

[Hozzie]

To further complicate things, what about the following scenario:

 

Joe goes and purchases a few firearms that are a good deal. He routinely purchases firearms from his coworkers who need cash and offer them to him at a discount. He sells via the internet and at gun shows regularly. However, for every purchase and sell he makes he meets at a local FFL and a background check is ran on the buyer. Does he need to be licensed?

 

TAX EVASION!

 

The key to all of this remains the livelyhood provision.  If you aren't living off of it, it's hard to prosecute you as a dealer.  As OS has posted many times, simply making money on them isn't illiegal.  Obummers EO's don't change any of this.  It's as you mention, it makes the ill informed think he has done something.

 

That's not to say the ATF won't try someone, but the law hasn't changed.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hozzie

[shotgunshooter]

it will be great to have an expert like Chip Cain or others talk more about this and how it involves trust owners going forward

We talked about it in chat yesterday. I remember some of what he talked about but I'll wait till he pops in.

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[Hozzie]

If I heard BO correctly....ANYONE that sell firearms will have to be an FFL and conduct background checks. My question is this.....Do I need to be an FFL in order to sell my shotgun to my brother-in-law?

 

Does this all but shutdown the Firearms classified at this site?

 

He never said such a thing.  No, it will not affect this site or you selling your shotgun to your BIL unless he lives out of state.  Then you will have to use an FFL as one always has.

[The Legion]

If I heard BO correctly....ANYONE that sell firearms will have to be an FFL and conduct background checks. My question is this.....Do I need to be an FFL in order to sell my shotgun to my brother-in-law?

 

Does this all but shutdown the Firearms classified at this site?

I would like to know the answer to this question also. 

[Hozzie]

I would like to know the answer to this question also. 

The short answer is NO.  The laws have not changed.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hozzie

[CJDore]

Hozzie, Judge Nataliano has a different opinion from you. He just said that you would have to be licensed to sell that gun to your brother and said it is an assault on the 2nd amendment. In essence, we can buy firearms but cannot sell them.

[justincase]

We talked about it in chat yesterday. I remember some of what he talked about but I'll wait till he pops in.

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awesome !

[shotgunshooter]

So TGO David or a moderator tell me if we can still sell guns on here? I must've overlooked this fact or not heard it

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[CJDore]

I say that BO just handed the 2016 Presidential Election to the GOP. This will galvanize gun owners and they will show up at the polls.

[Hozzie]

Hozzie, Judge Nataliano has a different opinion from you. He just said that you would have to be licensed to sell that gun to your brother and said it is an assault on the 2nd amendment. In essence, we can buy firearms but cannot sell them.

He's wrong.  I don't care if he is a judge or not.  Being a judge doesn't make you any smarter.  Go read the laws and any EO's.  You have to be in the "business" of selling guns.  That is already defined and Obama isn't changing it.  The "livelyhood" provision still remains.  I am referring the the guy who sells a gun periodically, not someone who has a table at every gun show.

 

At the end of the day, do what you feel is best, but I will sell guns and I will not do a background check.  I will ask to see ID, ask if they are a felon, and tell them to have a nice day so long as something else doesn't concern me.  That is the law for an individual seller, no REASONABLE suspicion someone should not own a gun.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hozzie

[GlockSpock]

The key to all of this remains the livelyhood provision. If you aren't living off of it, it's hard to prosecute you as a dealer. As OS has posted many times, simply making money on them isn't illiegal. Obummers EO's don't change any of this. It's as you mention, it makes the ill informed think he has done something.

That's not to say the ATF won't try someone, but the law hasn't changed.

Right. But in my scenario it is a supplement to Joe's income (he is a plumber).


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[Hozzie]

Right. But in my scenario it is a supplement to Joe's income (he is a plumber).


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Agreed, but only if they can prove he is using for that.  I don't use my gun money to live and most I know don't. We use any gun money (profit or loss) to buy other guns, not use for living expenses.  If you are, then you should be a dealer.  That was the case before any of this.  Nothing in this EO changes that.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hozzie

[CJDore]

He's wrong.  I don't care if he is a judge or not.  Being a judge doesn't make you any smarter.  Go read the laws and any EO's.  You have to be in the "business" of selling guns.  That is already defined and Obama isn't changing it.  The "livelyhood" provision still remains.  I am referring the the guy who sells a gun periodically, not someone who has a table at every gun show.

 

At the end of the day, do what you feel is best, but I will sell guns and I will not do a background check.  I will ask to see ID, ask if they are a felon, and tell them to have a nice day so long as something else doesn't concern me.  That is the law for an individual seller, no REASONABLE suspicion someone should not own a gun.

How do you surmise that a potential gun purchaser is not a felon? Further, what about the good dentist, gr8smiles, who happens to have a fabulous gun collection but wants to lighten the load as he did this year. I am quite certain that BO would definitely consider him a "dealer".

[GlockSpock]

Agreed, but only if they can prove he is using for that. I don't use my gun money to live and most I know don't. If you are, then you should be a dealer. That was the case before any of this. Nothing in this EO changes that.

Right. Was merely opening the theoretical question of supplement to your income but go through an FFL for every transaction.


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[Mike.357]

Hozzie has it.

 

If I want to walk around a gun show, run an ad here and sell part of my personal collection it is not illegal all of the sudden.  I am not in the business of guns, I buy and sell as part of my hobby.  I would dare say that almost all of us who do this rarely make money. Certainly not any more than to put back into the hobby.

 

I like to swap around with .22's, nothing has changed.

 

I see the same guys at gun shows with tables and display cases, some of which are not a licensed gun dealer.  At least they never made me fill out a background check if I bought anything.  These sellers may have to adapt.   And best as I recall most of these guys have the same stuff in their displays all the time.  Not sure what guns they are selling that end up being used in crime.

[Hozzie]

How do you surmise that a potential gun purchaser is not a felon? Further, what about the good dentist, gr8smiles, who happens to have a fabulous gun collection but wants to lighten the load as he did this year. I am quite certain that BO would definitely consider him a "dealer".

 

I ask them.  Can they lie, sure, but an individual seller only has to have reasonable suspicion as mentioned before.  Use common sense, if they want to pay you double what it is worth, something is wrong.  Say what you want, but if you show up and look like a thug, I am not selling to you.  If you are from out of state, I am not selling to you.  Can I guarantee you are legal, maybe not, but I don't have to unless I have reasonable suspicion you may be a felon.

 

I don't think gr8smiles is selling his to live, he is selling to invest on other items.  That is not livelyhood, so even though BHO would like think he is a dealer, they would have to prove it.  I don't think they can.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Hozzie

[GlockSpock]

I ask them. Can they lie, sure, but an individual seller only has to have reasonable suspicion as mentioned before. Use common sense, if they want to pay you double what it is worth, something is wrong. Say what you want, but if you show up and look like a thug, I am not selling to you. If you are from out of state, I am not selling to you. Can I guarantee you are legal, maybe not, but I don't have to unless I have reasonable suspicion you may be a felon.

I don't think gr8smiles is selling his to live, he is selling to invest on other items. That is not livelyhood, so even though BHO would like think he is a dealer, they would have to prove it. I don't think they can.

The ATF document person says you can liquidate your entire collection and are find.


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[CJDore]

BTW....no one is mentioning these high tech safety mechanisms that he is proposing for new firearms. A fingerprint type release would be fine if i was the only on etpo ever use my gun. Occasionally, my wife, adult children and friends may want to shoot my firearms. With a huge supply of firearms now in circulation in US, will this older firearms now be more valued and worth more? :2cents:  

[Oh Shoot]

Hozzie, Judge Nataliano has a different opinion from you. He just said that you would have to be licensed to sell that gun to your brother and said it is an assault on the 2nd amendment. In essence, we can buy firearms but cannot sell them.

 

He's wrong.  I don't care if he is a judge or not.  Being a judge doesn't make you any smarter.  ..

 

Andrew goes all Uber Minuteman at the drop of a (tricorn) hat. I've heard him wax completely elegant and completely wrong about existing firearm law for some time, not to mention the firearms themselves.

 

Best summation of the dealer/background check issues were actually on MSNBC right after, from a former ATF agent -- ie, that it didn't change anything at all with regards to those.

 

Whether adding a few agents, whether they actually ever get to do, will result in any closer enforcement of existing law remains to be seen, but would have to be negligible nation wide even if they do.

 

- OS

Edited January 5, 2016 by Oh Shoot