Rethinking HCP carry after San Bernadino

[K191145]

I am not an expert on anything but here are my thoughts and they are worth every cent you paid for them:

 

I really don't think there is a good way to choose a side-arm using the San Bernadino shooting as a model.  As peejman said, if a couple of folks bent on killing everyone in the room walk in and just start shooting then chances of stopping them with a handgun are slim.  Not impossible but slim.  Throw in that both of those individuals  - who are ready and willing to die in order to complete their massacre - are wearing body armor and the chance of saving oneself or anyone else using a handgun that can actually be carried on one's person become vanishingly small.  I mean, if you have ice water in your veins, nerves of steel and reflexes that would put Bruce Lee to shame then you might manage to bypass the armor by getting a couple of headshots on moving targets who are firing their rifles at you as quickly as they can pull the trigger but unless your name is John McClain (in which case you'd do all that while saying, "Yipee-cayee, moth.....")  it probably ain't going to happen.

 

What might happen is that one will choose a larger, heavier handgun while hoping against hope and most logic that it will drop those two heavily armed, armored attackers quickly and effectively.  Then, after a few weeks of not having to face such a threat that person may begin to leave said larger, heavier handgun (which probably still wouldn't do the job in the above situation) at home, in the vehicle, etc. because it is too much to carry, especially if one wants to carry concealed.  So now, rather than carrying a small, easily concealable handgun in a caliber that has a good chance of being effective against much more likely threats (tweaker, armed robber, etc.) because he or she is concerned that such a small, light weapon will not be 'enough' that person is not really carrying at all.

 

There still is a hell of a lot better chance to take them or one out if you and "OTHERS" are armed than no one armed. They can't point and shoot everyone at once, if they shoot the guy with the Beretta 92 then the woman with the 10mm to the side of the shooters has a chance while the dude with the Glock 21 on the other side can fire at them also. Also I don't believe any terrorists have worn real body armor yet, just tactical vests that don't stop anything. Like I said, they can't shoot everyone at once and even if you die, at least you have a chance to get one before that and that maybe 10 other lives saved. Armed you have a chance at least, unarmed you're simply jihad fodder. 

[M1_Garand]

I've got several unused AR lowers sitting in the safe, I'm giving serious consideration to building one into a 7" pistol in something like 300 BLK and carrying it in a dedicated bag to and from the office. My normal EDC is either a Sig p938 or a Glock 22 - it isn't going to do much against a couple of Jihadis with AKs and body armor.

[K191145]

I've got several unused AR lowers sitting in the safe, I'm giving serious consideration to building one into a 7" pistol in something like 300 BLK and carrying it in a dedicated bag to and from the office. My normal EDC is either a Sig p938 or a Glock 22 - it isn't going to do much against a couple of Jihadis with AKs and body armor.

 

Wouldn't be a bad idea for the next range visit to place a full size human paper target and practice head, neck, inner thigh, knee and ankle shots. While some aren't lethal shots a 9mm or .45 in the knee cap has a chance to suspend their shooting for a second to get a better shot. Now realistically that's very hard to do I know, just saying that body armor shouldn't make anyone give up, the groin and hip area is exposed if it's just a vest only and it's a fairly big target. Of course if it's just a tactical vest then unload in the torso/chest.

[Omega]

Body armor comes in many flavors; we are trying to purchase some concealable level IIIA body armor and are having to research many variables right now.  One thing that all level IIIA body armor has in common is that they are rated for small arms only, when you shoot it with a .223 or other rifle (fast) round its not much help.  One other thing to consider is that while a level IIIA vest may stop the bullet, that energy has to go somewhere, and I can tell you one thing, you will feel it.  It feels like getting hit with a bat, and that is with the level 4 plates in it as well, can't describe what it would feel like with just the soft body armor.  That is one reason we practice the triple tap, while the two to the chest may not kill or disable someone, it will get their attention giving you the opportunity for the third shot. Many vests have many weaknesses that you can exploit, first of course is the headshot, but there are others such as has been discussed before the hip shot, and also the armpit, legs etc etc.  There are plenty of YouTube videos out there with ballistic body armor tests, check some out and see how badly the testing medium (usually clay) is deformed after a shot. But of course adrenaline and or drugs will allow one to work through that, so don't rely on that to save your life, keep firing until you are either out of ammo or the assailant stops moving. 

 

The chances of anyone of us being involved in a situation like that are slim, very slim so I would not necessarily change what you are comfortable and proficient with.  But you probably need to assess your SD weapon of choice and its bullets to make sure they are the best overall for you.  And having a backup weapon in your vehicle which can penetrate level IIIA armor probably isn't a bad idea either.

[hipower]

Good tips for sure. I have made it a practice for many years to never sit with my back to any door or stand with my back to any door while I am in a business. I want to at all times know who or what is coming in the door. If you see guys coming towards the door with guns out long or short you begin moving right then to prepare for what is about to happen. Like many have said seconds can count in your favor if you stay crisp about your surrounding................. :up:

I've been doing this for so long I don't remember when it started. At fist my wife used to get a bit po'ed because I wouldn't like where the server would place us, or that I'd always asked her to swap chairs so I faced the entrance.

Then she didn't like that I wanted to sit across the table rather than side by side. I think it served to purposes.

More room to more quickly, and as I get older and slower I really like this part, and easier to eat when not jammed together.
Yeah, no more close romantic dinners. lol

But recently she has begun to understand why.

[nightrunner]

Groin shot with a heavy enough caliber will put someone down. Won't kill them immediately, but gives you time for a better placed shot to the head. A heavy enough caliber will shatter the pelvic bone when it hits, that is what supports your entire body. They will not stand on their own after that.

[Grand Torino]

I have practiced the double tap method for years from the draw. I guess it's been in the last 8-9 months I've started practicing three shots on a man shaped target and added another 5 yards to the distance. I'm getting better and I guess it's all I can ask for. I've carried a .45 in some form or fashion since 1973. It's what I shoot the best and what I'm most comfortable with.

 

If someone gets the draw on you with an AR or AK I figure my chances are slim....but I'll keep practicing anyway. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

[glowdotGlock]

Speed, audacity, surprise; use all three as best you can. They're expecting the crowd to run away in a panic. Don't do what they expect, and you can earn enough of an advantage to do what you can.

Couldn't agree more.

[McGarrett]

Get out of the danger zone and go home...

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I've heard that Kenny Loggins lurks around there. Watch Out!

[TMF]

I don't know why do many folks believe their chance is "slim" when using a pistol to confront a person with an AK.  Yes, the obvious advantage goes to the person with the rifle, due to power, range and capacity.  However, those advantages are useless in the hands of someone unprepared/untrained to deal with being shot at.  These types are cowards who aren't looking for a fight; they're looking for a slaughter.  Whether they're armed with a military style rifle or a bazooka, 9mm still hurts.  It still has an effect on their ability to function and breathe.  Being shot at is an emotional event for those who aren't prepared for it, and for these types of people, chances are they have never been shot at before.  The only way they're going to find out how well they react when that first round comes screaming at them is once it actually happens.

 

Regardless of whether they shoot back, flee, give up or die in place, it will take the focus off slaughtering the sheep.  It will save lives, no question.  Certainly the smart people here have figured out that all these mass shootings have occurred in gun free zones.  That isn't by accident.  There is a reason there.

[A.J. Holst]

I don't know why do many folks believe their chance is "slim" when using a pistol to confront a person with an AK. Yes, the obvious advantage goes to the person with the rifle, due to power, range and capacity. However, those advantages are useless in the hands of someone unprepared/untrained to deal with being shot at. These types are cowards who aren't looking for a fight; they're looking for a slaughter. Whether they're armed with a military style rifle or a bazooka, 9mm still hurts. It still has an effect on their ability to function and breathe. Being shot at is an emotional event for those who aren't prepared for it, and for these types of people, chances are they have never been shot at before. The only way they're going to find out how well they react when that first round comes screaming at them is once it actually happens.

Regardless of whether they shoot back, flee, give up or die in place, it will take the focus off slaughtering the sheep. It will save lives, no question. Certainly the smart people here have figured out that all these mass shootings have occurred in gun free zones. That isn't by accident. There is a reason there.

I believe the wolves don't expect sheepdogs among the sheep. Concealed is concealed and not many posted places have metal detectors.

[K191145]

I don't know why do many folks believe their chance is "slim" when using a pistol to confront a person with an AK.  Yes, the obvious advantage goes to the person with the rifle, due to power, range and capacity.  However, those advantages are useless in the hands of someone unprepared/untrained to deal with being shot at.  These types are cowards who aren't looking for a fight; they're looking for a slaughter.  Whether they're armed with a military style rifle or a bazooka, 9mm still hurts.  It still has an effect on their ability to function and breathe.  Being shot at is an emotional event for those who aren't prepared for it, and for these types of people, chances are they have never been shot at before.  The only way they're going to find out how well they react when that first round comes screaming at them is once it actually happens.

 

Regardless of whether they shoot back, flee, give up or die in place, it will take the focus off slaughtering the sheep.  It will save lives, no question.  Certainly the smart people here have figured out that all these mass shootings have occurred in gun free zones.  That isn't by accident.  There is a reason there.

 

This.

[jgradyc]

I'm the OP for this topic. Here's my thoughts after a few days. These aren't necessarily things I'm doing differently, but things I'm going to emphasize more from now on.

 

Maintain awareness. 

Wear running shoes at all times. Run if possible. (I'm not LEO, not trained except for target practice, no need to be a hero, and very fast runner!)

Hide (see above). Know where exits and cover are at all times.

I just upgraded my "large" pocket carry from Kahr PM9 to Sig Sauer P938. (Great deal on Sigs right now from Northern Firearms on GunBroker... $579 for the P938 with factory laser.)

Start carrying a spare mag.

Go armed more often. 

[jgradyc]

I went to Brown's Diner yesterday for lunch and the only empty table was in the middle of the room. It felt odd to sit in the middle of the room. 

[E4 No More]

Although CommsNBombs is correct about not taking on the terrorists with a handgun, you still have to plan towards having to fight your way out because you may not have a choice. I have been standardizing on 9mm because the Glock 20's finger grooves don't fit my hand, but now I'm considering the .357 Sig. The very day that this shooting happened I picked up my Sig P320 in 9mm. Now I'm thinking of getting a caliber conversion kit for my existing P320c to convert it to a P320 .357 Sig. My thought is that a double tap to the chest with a couple of .357 rounds will stun enough through a vest to follow up with a shot to the head.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I don't see it being much different being shot at whether it's a rifle or a pistol.  The shooter can't point and fire any more quickly with one over the other, and in the type of indoor environment where these shootings take place the range advantage of a rifle isn't really an issue.  The only advantage the shooter would have is magazine capacity, but based on some research I have read these shooters don't typically walk in and dump rounds rapid fire.  Instead, they walk around and select targets to shoot at so you should have the same amount of time to react whether the shooter has a long gun or a hand gun.  I'm also rethinking my carry method and strongly considering going back to my Sig P228 over the single stack 9mm I've been carrying.  If I'm going to be facing some ISIS ****bag armed to the teeth, I want as many rounds ready to deploy as possible.  I carried a 13 round P-229 on duty over a 7 shot compact 9mm pistol as a LEO in case I had to face down a serious threat, so if there is now a real possibility I will be facing a similar threat now, why would I do any differently?  Honestly, during an indoor event at close range, I'd rather have a shotgun than a rifle or a handgun, but since that's not viable I figure 15 rounds of 9mm that I can put downrange accurately is my best option. 

Now, would I actively seek out the shooter and attempt to terminate the threat?  The answer is "maybe" depending on the circumstances.  If I feel I can find and maintain adequate cover and concealment, I very well might.  That's the former LEO in me, and I am the type that would want to do something to save people's lives if at all possible.  I am not going to put myself into the line of fire except in the most crucial of situations, such as to defend my family or some children.  At the end of the day, I figure it's the responsibility of adults to decide how best to secure their own safety and well-being.  If they chose to not carry a firearm for their own protection, I am not inclined to put my life at risk to save theirs.  

A couple of other considerations:  1) These shooters typically seek out soft targets (a.k.a. so-called gun-free zones), so one has to decide what type of risk they are going to take when faced with the need to go to such a location.  2) You should have a plan in place on how to conduct yourself once law enforcement arrives.  The last thing you want is to be a visibly armed individual when a bunch of adrenaline fueled cops locked and loaded for a shootout come rushing into the venue.  They are not likely to be especially interested in spending much time determining whether the person holding a gun is a good guy or a bad guy and will very quickly terminate any perceived threat.  Doesn't do me much good to use my gun to defend myself only to be killed by the police when they show up.

Edited December 5, 2015 by East_TN_Patriot

[SupaRice]

This is what I'm doing.

Ditching he .45 XDs and buying a M&P in .40 and full size.

.40 because I'll have one caliber for all handguns

Full size because I want more rounds, and I don't care if I'm printing. "Yes, I do have a gun under my shirt. Don't like that? Too bad, I don't care."

It would still suck very badly to get hit by a .40... so haters go on and hate Edited December 5, 2015 by SupaRice

[TMF]

I'm back to carrying my 1911 OWB, because I've simply stopped caring about upsetting hoplophobes.


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[glowdotGlock]

I've heard that Kenny Loggins lurks around there. Watch Out!

Nice!!

[K191145]

I'm the OP for this topic. Here's my thoughts after a few days. These aren't necessarily things I'm doing differently, but things I'm going to emphasize more from now on.

 

Maintain awareness. 

Wear running shoes at all times. Run if possible. (I'm not LEO, not trained except for target practice, no need to be a hero, and very fast runner!)

Hide (see above). Know where exits and cover are at all times.

I just upgraded my "large" pocket carry from Kahr PM9 to Sig Sauer P938. (Great deal on Sigs right now from Northern Firearms on GunBroker... $579 for the P938 with factory laser.)

Start carrying a spare mag.

Go armed more often. 

 

Truth is, unless anyone has been in a gunfight before they really can't guarantee what they would do, all we can do is hope we would react the right way. I have thought about it a lot, would I try to leave and run for safety or would I try to engage someway. I also wonder how my conscience would handle it if I knew I had a chance to do something to stop a killer but decided to save myself. Odds are I will never find out but since I hate words like probably, and odds are, i'll have a mental plan and carry my Glock everywhere with me. 

[K191145]

Saw this on FB. Just had to throw it in.

 

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JMH42/media/Wyatt%20and%20Doc_zpszok3elwu.jpg.html][/URL]

[bersaguy]

Speed, audacity, surprise; use all three as best you can.  They're expecting the crowd to run away in a panic.  Don't do what they expect, and you can earn enough of an advantage to do what you can. 

I can promise anyone this. If I was ever faced with a scenario such as this one and I am armed I will not be shot in the back. I might get shot but it will be because I am facing my enemy and doing everything in my power to if not kill them at least hurt them, or discourage them and do a Shock n Awe till the Calvary does arrive since they won't be expecting a soft target to shoot back...................... :usa:  

[JAB]

There still is a hell of a lot better chance to take them or one out if you and "OTHERS" are armed than no one armed. They can't point and shoot everyone at once, if they shoot the guy with the Beretta 92 then the woman with the 10mm to the side of the shooters has a chance while the dude with the Glock 21 on the other side can fire at them also. Also I don't believe any terrorists have worn real body armor yet, just tactical vests that don't stop anything. Like I said, they can't shoot everyone at once and even if you die, at least you have a chance to get one before that and that maybe 10 other lives saved. Armed you have a chance at least, unarmed you're simply jihad fodder. 

 

I never said not to be armed.  I'm just saying that your chances with anything short of a true hand cannon - something that will be so large and heavy as to be totally impractical for on-body carry in most situations - aren't likely to be any greater than with a 9mm, .357, etc. 

[TMF]

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[jgradyc]

Now, would I actively seek out the shooter and attempt to terminate the threat?  The answer is "maybe" depending on the circumstances.  If I feel I can find and maintain adequate cover and concealment, I very well might.  That's the former LEO in me, and I am the type that would want to do something to save people's lives if at all possible.  I am not going to put myself into the line of fire except in the most crucial of situations, such as to defend my family or some children.  At the end of the day, I figure it's the responsibility of adults to decide how best to secure their own safety and well-being.  If they chose to not carry a firearm for their own protection, I am not inclined to put my life at risk to save theirs.  

A couple of other considerations:  1) These shooters typically seek out soft targets (a.k.a. so-called gun-free zones), so one has to decide what type of risk they are going to take when faced with the need to go to such a location.  2) You should have a plan in place on how to conduct yourself once law enforcement arrives.  The last thing you want is to be a visibly armed individual when a bunch of adrenaline fueled cops locked and loaded for a shootout come rushing into the venue.  They are not likely to be especially interested in spending much time determining whether the person holding a gun is a good guy or a bad guy and will very quickly terminate any perceived threat.  Doesn't do me much good to use my gun to defend myself only to be killed by the police when they show up.

This is a very good summary of my thinking as well, although I'm not a former LEO.