Rethinking HCP carry after San Bernadino

[jgradyc]

After the Aurora shooting in 2012, I had to rethink my primary carry.  Until then, I had been content in being able to hit a target at close (within 20 feet) range. The Aurora shooting combined with tear gas changed my approach. I now carry a handgun that I can shoot accurately at longer range with a laser for low light/impaired vision. 

 

After San Bernadino, it might be time to rethink carry again. Going against two long guns is near suicide. Waiting until they reload would seem to be the best tactic. Not sure what other lessons to take away... your thoughts?

Edited December 3, 2015 by jgradyc

[bersaguy]

That is why I have done all of my range time at 30 feet for last couple years. If I can take down my target at 30 feet anything closer would almost be a gemme. As far as going up against long guns, depending on the caliber of your carry weapon if your close enough to engage them you should be close enough to drop them as long as they are not wearing actual body armor. Evidently those two yesterday were not wearing body armor but just tactical clothing with extra magazines according to the police.

 

As far as waiting for them to reload, if your in the same room with them you may not have that kind of time before you are forced to respond. You also have an advantage because they are expecting a complete soft target and not expecting in coming hot lead.............jmho

Edited December 3, 2015 by bersaguy

[Will Carry]

I have stopped carrying my little 380 in favor of my full size 1911 and three magazines. The 1911 is surprisingly slim.

[bersaguy]

I still carry my Mod. 85 Bersa 380 but have upgraded my carry ammo to a more effective product........ :whistle:

[peejman]

If a couple BG's burst into a room where you're sitting around a table and start banging away with rifles.... honestly, you're pretty much f__ked.  It's up to God or fate or whatever you believe in to get you out of that one. 

 

Awareness is about the only take-away I can come up with.  As I understand it, these folks were at a "holiday" (read Christmas) party and the Muslim guy in the office left pissed off (shock).  I get the impression no one in there would have ever dreamed he'd come back with a friend to kill them all.  Be aware where-ever you are.  Always know where the exits are.  Always know what might work as cover (which is pretty much nothing in a typical office building).

 

Maybe improving your draw/fire time is another take-away.  Seconds count.  Fractions of seconds count. 

[Omega]

You need to practice at differing ranges with your chosen caliber.  You must always be thinking that they have body armor, in a heated situation you may not get the opportunity to assess what they are wearing so practice like the pros (Military SOF) go with Body, Body, Head type shots.  Waiting for an opportune time to fire is really not a good tactic, while they may be willing to die; they will take cover if they are engaged.  That extra time may give others and LEO time to come and do cleanup. 

[Oh Shoot]

....

Awareness is about the only take-away I can come up with.  As I understand it, these folks were at a "holiday" (read Christmas) party and the Muslim guy in the office left pissed off (shock).  ..

 

That hasn't really panned out as reliable info seems. Based on just one person saying that.  Another guy who was sitting right beside him said he just left without saying anything, leaving his coat. Said he seemed sort of nervous, but who knows.

 

- OS

Edited December 3, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[bersaguy]

You need to practice at differing ranges with your chosen caliber.  You must always be thinking that they have body armor, in a heated situation you may not get the opportunity to assess what they are wearing so practice like the pros (Military SOF) go with Body, Body, Head type shots.  Waiting for an opportune time to fire is really not a good tactic, while they may be willing to die; they will take cover if they are engaged.  That extra time may give others and LEO time to come and do cleanup. 

 

Good tips for sure. I have made it a practice for many years to never sit with my back to any door or stand with my back to any door while I am in a business. I want to at all times know who or what is coming in the door. If you see guys coming towards the door with guns out long or short you begin moving right then to prepare for what is about to happen. Like many have said seconds can count in your favor if you stay crisp about your surrounding................. :up:

[K191145]

I've been toting around a Glock 21 forever, I had a thought about a 41, that little bit of extra barrel length I have read, gives the 41 some extra FPS. Some 230+p at 1000+ FPS would add some distance. Then there's the 10mm which i'm not familiar with but a lot of people like. Just thinking of the best fighting handgun not considering concealability with as much punch as you can control.

Of course if you really want some longer distance, 100 to 200 yards with real serious punch just go ahead and carry a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Cassull loaded with some 300 grainers, don't matter if they're HP or not, and good red dot sight. Of course i'm not really serious about that unless you hike in bear country a lot.

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

I carry my 29 as my EDC, now of course I'm considering switching to my 20. I also have my 21as a backup in my vehicle. Luckily I've ordered new holsters and AG belts that I'm excited about because I can finally change up my day to day carry depending upon my daily tasks. But it's always going to be 10mm and .45!

[K191145]

I carry my 29 as my EDC, now of course I'm considering switching to my 20. I also have my 21as a backup in my vehicle. Luckily I've ordered new holsters and AG belts that I'm excited about because I can finally change up my day to day carry depending upon my daily tasks. But it's always going to be 10mm and .45!

 

I know it's "highly unlikely" for me to ever encounter a terrorist with a semi-auto long gun, the "most likely" scenario would be a home invasion or a close encounter with some punk thug but I still believe if you can pull off carrying a hefty 9mm or bigger then do it. You are limited with a handgun anyway so you might as well carry the most effective one you can. I would feel uneasy with a compact .380 personally, i'll sometimes throw my SP101 .357mag. in my pocket for walking around the house and yard but out and about it's my G21. Also, we all know Islamic terrorist attacks happen here, also psycho active shooters, they happen to somebody and I don't like words like, "highly unlikely", "probably", "most likely", "should be" etc. No one wants to hear the airplane mechanic tell the pilot, that fuel leak "probably" wont get any worse through this flight. I heard that once.

Edited December 4, 2015 by K191145

[No_0ne]

I carry my 29 as my EDC, now of course I'm considering switching to my 20. I also have my 21as a backup in my vehicle. Luckily I've ordered new holsters and AG belts that I'm excited about because I can finally change up my day to day carry depending upon my daily tasks. But it's always going to be 10mm and .45!

Now you've done it ...

[Oh Shoot]

..... they happen to somebody and I don't like words like, "highly unlikely", "probably", "most likely", "should be" etc. ..

 

Yeah, seems I've never been anywhere near the middle of a bell curve regarding most anything in my whole life.

 

- OS

Edited December 4, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Now you've done it ...

I feel like this should be the standard expected from a foolish girl like me. LOL

[Tuffus]

I've pocket carried my LCR .357 for quite a while thinking it would be enough in most cases such as a robbery in a large parking lot at night but lately I've been carrying either my Glock 30 OWB or the FNS9 compact IWB in addition to the LCR because of terrorist attacks such as San Bernidino. The extra rounds might come in handy. I don't really expect to be in that situation but neither did the people in San Bernidino.

[Pain103]

 Shooting at varying distances is great but realistically if you're in a location with long hallways like several hundred feet they will probably be cluttered with people running so popping off rounds may not be an option rather than going cover to cover or just advancing toward the threat. I have been in an active shooter/killer school this week and it was weird that right before San Bernadino happened we were training for breaching locked/chained doors and suspects with bombs.

 

Also something to mention and I know it is always a concern but with this type of situation the way officers were trained to rush in and neutralize the threat is with HCP holders and off duty LEO is being distinguished by the incoming officers as not a threat. I don't know the solution but be prepared to drop down and disarm very quickly so no good guys take a round. I would hate to send lead down to someone is who isn't deserving.

 

Also the only the thing I changed up with carrying was just ensuring an extra mag. I carry my Glock 27 using a 23 mag and carry a 22 mag as my spare along with a smaller pocket clip led flashlight. I think between 29 rounds I can either defend myself, get somewhere safely, or the cavalry has arrived.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Pain103

[btq96r]

Speed, audacity, surprise; use all three as best you can.  They're expecting the crowd to run away in a panic.  Don't do what they expect, and you can earn enough of an advantage to do what you can. 

[CommsNBombs]

If some retards are running around with AKs and SVests I am not sticking around.

Yes 10mm is known to reduce mortals to piles of goo and gristle, however I will not try to tackle a hunter killer team bent on killing everyone.

Only to have the wannabe SOF cop cavalry shoot me 320 times while mildly creaming their panties.

Im tired of all this postulating and tactical planning it doesnt solve anything. Everyone is getting scared.

Hold your family close and stay aware - but dont be a fool and think carrying a pistol be it a 9mm with a 33 rd mag or 10mm or 454 Cas is going to eliminate a threat.

Get out of the danger zone and go home...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Trekbike]

Yes 10mm is known to reduce mortals to piles of goo and gristle,

I thought only a 45 could do that... :)

Since you mentioned caliber, why do you dislike .40 S&W so much?

[10-Ring]

I thought only a 45 could do that... :)

Since you mentioned caliber, why do you dislike .40 S&W so much?

Haven't you heard 10mm is the new .45.

[10-Ring]

Seriously though.  For the past couple of years my EDC has been a Taurus TCP on me and a bigger gun closer by.  After this most recent event I have been considering sticking an AR in the truck as well.  I really can't imagine a scenario where I would need it but I'd rather have it and but need it...

[CommsNBombs]

I thought only a 45 could do that... :)

Since you mentioned caliber, why do you dislike .40 S&W so much?

45 does that too - I like going with lighter 185 or 200gr 45 so I can push faster.

I dislike .40 because of the "wundergewher" reputation it has - everyone thinks its some hybrid 9mm and 45 and has all sorts of misconceptions.

The reality is 9mm is just as fast and hits as hard as the .40 cal the ignorance behind it makes me roll my eyes. Metullurgical and powder developements have come a long way but the average shooter doesnt know that.

Plus carrying a neutered 10mm goes against my thought process - ammo capacity is the same - or I can carry 357SIG which is still more effective. I can reload either just as cheaper if not cheaper and far more effective.

However all the 10mm and quarterbacking in the world aint gonna convince me to fight some Jihadis with AKs. No one else would do it either.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[fourteentwo]

However all the 10mm and quarterbacking in the world aint gonna convince me to fight some Jihadis with AKs. No one else would do it either.
 

 

You obviously haven't heard of John McClane... ;)  :rofl:

 

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/Die_hard.jpg

[Omega]

 Shooting at varying distances is great but realistically if you're in a location with long hallways like several hundred feet they will probably be cluttered with people running so popping off rounds may not be an option rather than going cover to cover or just advancing toward the threat. I have been in an active shooter/killer school this week and it was weird that right before San Bernadino happened we were training for breaching locked/chained doors and suspects with bombs.

 

Also something to mention and I know it is always a concern but with this type of situation the way officers were trained to rush in and neutralize the threat is with HCP holders and off duty LEO is being distinguished by the incoming officers as not a threat. I don't know the solution but be prepared to drop down and disarm very quickly so no good guys take a round. I would hate to send lead down to someone is who isn't deserving.

 

Also the only the thing I changed up with carrying was just ensuring an extra mag. I carry my Glock 27 using a 23 mag and carry a 22 mag as my spare along with a smaller pocket clip led flashlight. I think between 29 rounds I can either defend myself, get somewhere safely, or the cavalry has arrived.

Practicing differing distances is not to advance on a target, its not to go all Hollywood on a terrorist.  It is designed to be able to engage someone that is actively trying to engage you.  You need to be familiar with the POA and POI of your chosen SD weapon at different ranges so you can get a high probability lethal hit on your adversary. 

 

LEO training is another thing all together, but for most of us, and I include myself even though I am retired military, our responsibility is to engage the target if they are trying to engage us.  If they are in a different room, you are better off trying to exit stage left.  And as you said, be prepared to be confronted by LEO, or other CCW permit holders; there is no hard and set rule of how to act or how to distinguish between a shooter and a responder so my rule of thumb is to engage those that engage me.   

 

 

If some retards are running around with AKs and SVests I am not sticking around.

Yes 10mm is known to reduce mortals to piles of goo and gristle, however I will not try to tackle a hunter killer team bent on killing everyone.

Only to have the wannabe SOF cop cavalry shoot me 320 times while mildly creaming their panties.

Im tired of all this postulating and tactical planning it doesnt solve anything. Everyone is getting scared.

Hold your family close and stay aware - but dont be a fool and think carrying a pistol be it a 9mm with a 33 rd mag or 10mm or 454 Cas is going to eliminate a threat.

Get out of the danger zone and go home...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 For the most part I agree, if I don't have to be in the same battle space with an adversary that outguns me I wont be.  But being prepared is not a waste of time, nobody KNOWS how they will react under fire so having a bit of prior training goes a long way.  When I first deployed to a war zone, my only fear was not knowing how I would react under those circumstances, or how others would react that were supposed to be my backup.  With a few exceptions, everyone did their job and I am glad to say that when the time came, my reactions coincided with my training and I am still here due to that fact.  Now, I am a civilian and my number one priority is to protect my family, myself, or others if the situation dictates.  But I am not LEO, and I am not a military door kicker so I won't be actively seeking confrontation with any shooter unless I have no other choice.

[JAB]

I am not an expert on anything but here are my thoughts and they are worth every cent you paid for them:

 

I really don't think there is a good way to choose a side-arm using the San Bernadino shooting as a model.  As peejman said, if a couple of folks bent on killing everyone in the room walk in and just start shooting then chances of stopping them with a handgun are slim.  Not impossible but slim.  Throw in that both of those individuals  - who are ready and willing to die in order to complete their massacre - are wearing body armor and the chance of saving oneself or anyone else using a handgun that can actually be carried on one's person become vanishingly small.  I mean, if you have ice water in your veins, nerves of steel and reflexes that would put Bruce Lee to shame then you might manage to bypass the armor by getting a couple of headshots on moving targets who are firing their rifles at you as quickly as they can pull the trigger but unless your name is John McClain (in which case you'd do all that while saying, "Yipee-cayee, moth.....")  it probably ain't going to happen.

 

What might happen is that one will choose a larger, heavier handgun while hoping against hope and most logic that it will drop those two heavily armed, armored attackers quickly and effectively.  Then, after a few weeks of not having to face such a threat that person may begin to leave said larger, heavier handgun (which probably still wouldn't do the job in the above situation) at home, in the vehicle, etc. because it is too much to carry, especially if one wants to carry concealed.  So now, rather than carrying a small, easily concealable handgun in a caliber that has a good chance of being effective against much more likely threats (tweaker, armed robber, etc.) because he or she is concerned that such a small, light weapon will not be 'enough' that person is not really carrying at all.

 

Then, again, I suppose one could always try and figure out a way to comfortably carry one of these:

 

 

or something like this:

 

http://www.magnumresearch.com/Firearms/Magnum-Research-4570-Revolver-75-inch-Barrel.asp

Edited December 4, 2015 by JAB