San Bernardino shooting

[Oh Shoot]

Haven't scanned the recap or recorded brief but I am almost certain it was in this brief.  It was around when he was asked who shot first; he said she was firing from the backseat, and that he stepped out to fire from the street, apparently not getting too far.

 

Yes, you're right, just re-listened. said, "male suspect, who was the driver, got out and fired at officers". So between the pictures and other reports which said both were dead "in" the car, I think he stood right by the side of car with the door still open and slumped back mostly into it when he was plugged, like the picture sort of shows.

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

ARs, I imagine. They keep talking about all the .223 they've found.

Also, "long rifle" rounds.. I'm assuming they mean 22?

 

He only mentioned the .22lr once AFAIK. Not gonna re-listen yet again, but if he said "long rifle rounds", most likely talking about the .223.

 

- OS

[btq96r]

For anyone trying to justify this because of the crusades let me dispel that as hogwash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo
 
Islam was attempting to take over the world and the crusades were in response to Islamic aggression not the other way around. Islam started it and the crusades tried to stop it. The crusades stopped almost immediately as soon as they started but jihad has not stopped once in 1,500 years. They will not stop until every one of us here are either Muslim or dead, period. And the worst part is a lot of Americans would rather live as a Muslim slave than be called a racist, islamaphobe or some other label.

 

Dolo...I love you long time, brother, but that's not exactly how it all went down.

 

Whoever that guy is in the video is right that Islam has been on the march since the time of Muhammad.  After Muhammad consolidated Islam in what we now call Saudi Arabia, they kept expanding after his death, going around the Byzantine Empire, but taking most of North Africa.  Great pic of it here, and if you look at it you can see that it’s very similar to what ISIS is trying to get done. 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Age_of_Caliphs.png

 

At this point Islam as a hybrid religion/empire were so widespread that they actually took over most of the Iberian Peninsula and pushed into France, until they were stopped and rolled back at the Battle of Tours in 732 where Charles “the Hammer” Martel basically saved the rest of Europe from becoming Islamic.  This also serves to rally Christians against Islam. 

 

So, we can safely say that Islamic expansion has been a thing for a while.  Not that it was any different from most countries back then, they were just very organized and efficient.   They did force conversion of Christians in the lands they conquered though,  and it also served to scare and demonize those Christians in lands that Islam hadn’t made it to.  So I consider that era the real beginning of the religious wars.   

 

Fast forward to the Crusades…

 

Pope Urban II had various reasons for calling for the First Crusade that historians debate, but call for it he did in a very deliberate manner in his speech at Clermont in 1095.  All this enlightenment of love and peace Christianity has apparently wasn’t there yet by the accounts of the speech.  The remission of sins was promised for anyone who went as a recruiting tactic.  One of my history professors is in the camp that the Seljuk Turks greed in charging Christian pilgrims to view their holy sites was a big enough factor, and since enough modern wars come down to money reasons, that’s easy enough for me to believe as a major contributing reason.  Another reason is that the warrior caste of Europe (knights and such) was fighting each other too much, and the Church wanted to give them an outward target to focus on.  Since that happens in modern day times as well, easy enough to believe it happened then.  Another theory has a plea from the Byzantine Emperor who had to deal with the ever-encroaching Islam on their borders, but that had been going on for a while.  Regardless of the reasons, after it all got started, the primary goal became the reacquisition of the Holy Land for Christians.  Might as well if you’re going to walk or ride all the way there, right?

 

Not exactly the defensive war he tried to make the Crusades out to be, and damn sure not trying to "free their Christian brothers and sisters from Jihad" since it came 400 years after Islam conquered what he deemed to as the "Christian Middle East."

 

Anyway, the barbarism of the Christian Crusaders is pretty well established.  On the way to the Middle East, the Crusaders who travel through modern day German actually victimized Jews along the way as well.  This was never an official policy of the Church, just something the Crusaders did.  Maybe they hadn’t read the message of love Jesus preaches in their bibles yet, who knows.  Wikipedia actually has a decent read on it if you want to catch up on this side story.  Once the Crusaders got to Jerusalem, the massacres that took place there are easily a matter of historic record, only their intensity is debated, though any serious historian doesn’t deny it was brutal even by the standards of the day, with more anti-Semitism when they burned down a synagogue with Jews sheltered inside.  That was the First Crusade.  And from there sprung the tales of how Christianity wanted to destroy Islam, because at the time it was more or less true, but they only had the mission and force to do what they did.

 

The second crusade was no less violent, but saw the Muslims regain control of the Holy Land.  The Crusaders did manage to take the Iberian Peninsula in a secondary front, however.

 

The third crusade was a counteroffensive by the west, with Richard I (Lionheart) fighting well enough to force Saladin to work out the Treaty of Jaffa, where pilgrims were given safety to visit the Holy Land again.

 

The 4^th-6^th Crusades I’m not that spun up on, though I know they were as much internal as external. 

 

Guy in the video said that the Crusades were short and ended centuries ago. They actually lasted from 1095 until 1244 in the Middle East when Jerusalem was captured again by Muslims and that stayed the norm until World War I.  To Islam, our meddling in the region is the modern day equivalent, never mind the geopolitical realities behind our presence there.  He also mentioned tried to compare the amount of battles, but since the Crusades were expeditionary in nature, and Islam's march were the full expansion of an empire, that's not anywhere an apt comparison. 

 

So yeah, that guy in the video isn't exactly an honest broker on all this.

Edited December 3, 2015 by btq96r

[wewoapsiak]

So has there been a final say on what rifles were used? I've heard AK's but also AR's. So which one?

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The AR-15s they had on them in the SUV were a DPMS and a M&P according to the chief of police last night. The handguns were a llama and a M&P I think.

[Erik88]

If they stopped feeling like they were being pushed around all the time, then yes. In reality though, no. Western nations aren't going to stop screwing around in the Middle East, and there will be no peace. I doubt the world will exist long enough for Islam to mature, we'll all nuke each other off long before then.

 

I'm sorry Blake but I couldn't disagree with you more. It sounds like you're blaming western countries for the violent behavior we are seeing. As we all know, Muslims have been violent for a long, long time. Far before the US and other countries got involved in the middle east. I agree we probably made things worse.

 

How do you explain all the violence and attacks that Muslims perform in other parts of the world that don't have their nose in the middle east? Hell, look at Africa. Anywhere there is a large concentration of Muslims is generally a pretty shitty part of the world.

 

While I'm not as extreme as some of the members here in thinking that all Muslims are horrible, I'm also not naïve enough to think that it's only a small minority that want to kill us. I will not claim to be an expert on Islam but everything I've read leaves me genuinely concerned with our future.

 

I keep thinking back to that survey of Muslims living in England. Over 40% admitted to sympathizing with Bin Laden. That's just the ones that answered honestly.

[superduty]

 

News keeps making much about them having this huge stash of ammo, so they suspect they might have been stockpiling it for other terrorist collaborators or something.
 
So let's see:
 
They had 1,400 .223 caliber rounds and 200 9-mm rounds on them/in SUV after the gunbattle. At the house they found another 2,500 .233 rounds and 2,000 more 9mm. Oh, and a "few hundred" .22LR.
 
So, 3,900 rounds of .223 and 2,200 9mm. Total stash. And I see they had problems getting .22LR also. :)
 
Reporter asked if that was even legal to have "that much". :) Chief told him no law against it.
 
Guess they'd be floored just to see my stash, and I'm just a piker compared to many many here.
 
The couple fired about 75 rounds at the murder scene. In the gun battle, seems the dame was driving and Farook was doing the shooting -- about 76 rounds at the cops, and the cops graced the SUV with 380 of them in return.
 
- OS

 


I was flying home today from a business trip, and heard this talk while I was on a layover in the Atlanta airport.
I had to chuckle out loud when I heard the reporters freaking out about the 'huge stashes of ammo'.

[Oh Shoot]

The AR-15s they had on them in the SUV were a DPMS and a M&P according to the chief of police last night. The handguns were a llama and a M&P I think.

 

Yeah, I've not even heard AK mentioned.

 

But you've got to say it right, it was a Smith and Wesson Military and Police model, like the news reporting generally does.  Supports the meme of the police being undergunned which I've heard any number of times by various talking heads.

 

- OS

Edited December 3, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[JohnC]

Pictures here show an AR15 and it doesn't look CA complaint to me...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344350/Devout-Muslim-citizen-Saudi-wife-living-American-Dream-identified-heavily-armed-duo-burst-office-holiday-party-slaughtered-14-leaving-baby-mother.html

[KKing]

Pictures here show an AR15 and it doesn't look CA complaint to me...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344350/Devout-Muslim-citizen-Saudi-wife-living-American-Dream-identified-heavily-armed-duo-burst-office-holiday-party-slaughtered-14-leaving-baby-mother.html

Sadly, to the people that matter it will fall on deaf ears that they are criminals that obviously won't follow any law.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bud]

.

Edited January 6, 2016 by bud

[hipower]

Yes, you're right, just re-listened. said, "male suspect, who was the driver, got out and fired at officers". So between the pictures and other reports which said both were dead "in" the car, I think he stood right by the side of car with the door still open and slumped back mostly into it when he was plugged, like the picture sort of shows.
 
- OS

Ok, have I missed something? What about the body lying 30 yards or so away from the open drivers door? The one on the sidewalk?

[gregintenn]

Pictures here show an AR15 and it doesn't look CA complaint to me...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3344350/Devout-Muslim-citizen-Saudi-wife-living-American-Dream-identified-heavily-armed-duo-burst-office-holiday-party-slaughtered-14-leaving-baby-mother.html

I'm not sure shooting people is CA compliant either.

 

You know what California needs? Some GD gun control!!! :wall: :wall: :wall:

[GlockSpock]

Chief today mentioned "hi capacity" magazines more than once.

 

- OS

 

Oh, ok. I don't have network television and have only been reading about this and that. Too bad those guys didn't observe existing laws, they totally should have! Yet what we need are more laws to prevent more stuff from happening....psych!

[Oh Shoot]

Ok, have I missed something? What about the body lying 30 yards or so away from the open drivers door? The one on the sidewalk?

 

What pic? Was it one after they dragged him out and away from the SUV or something?

 

Took a long time to get her out, since they used the grabber thingie to poke around and do it.

 

I mean, I guess you're right since you seem sure, and I'm confused.  Doesn't really matter, but I'm curious now.

 

- OS

[RED333]

I do have a personal request fellows. On all of this Islam vs. Christianity vs. Catholic Church and whose Bible or Koran thumping abilities and self justification dialog ongoing here. This thread started as a commentary of a mass shooting with some good referred reports. You fellows have become preachy and borderline offensive in turning it into a religious tirade. For the love of Mike please knock it off and stop trying to rewrite what's done.  

We have been fighting wars for 1000s of years because we do not all believe the same things.

It will take a BIG event to bring the human race together as one people. Till them we will just fight and kill each other, it is a shame aint it?

[Hozzie]

What pic? Was it one after they dragged him out and away from the SUV or something?

Took a long time to get her out, since they used the grabber thingie to poke around and do it.

I mean, I guess you're right since you seem sure, and I'm confused. Doesn't really matter, but I'm curious now.

- OS

I am pretty sure it was the guy. He was away from the vehicle well before any of the swat got there. He was dead (or most likely) in a big pool of blood when I started watching the live feed. There is a post on here that would time stamp it. He may have been hit originally while in the vehicle, but I thought I heard them say early on they shot one guy running from the vehicle. This would align with what I saw as well. I suppose it could have been the woman, but I am almost certain it was one of them. Edited December 4, 2015 by Hozzie

[Oh Shoot]

I am pretty sure it was the guy. He was away from the vehicle well before any of the swat got there. He was dead (or most likely) in a big pool of blood when I started watching the live feed. There is a post on here that would time stamp it. He may have been hit originally while in the vehicle, but I thought I heard them say early on they shot one guy running from the vehicle. This would align with what I saw as well. I suppose it could have been the woman, but I am almost certain it was one of them.

 

?? The woman was "one of them", there was only the two. She definitely died in the back of the vehicle, took long time to get her out since they wouldn't just grab her with their hands.

 

Thing is, I can't find a vid or pic that shows that, but see a number of stories of them both dying in the van, though did find one that says his body was "next to" the van.

 

- OS

Edited December 4, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[FUJIMO]

I'm not sure shooting people is CA compliant either.

You know what California needs? Some GD gun control!!! :wall: :wall: :wall:

Lmfao. Pelosi and Frankenstein said the same thing earlier today.

[Oh Shoot]

We have been fighting wars for 1000s of years because we do not all believe the same things.

It will take a BIG event to bring the human race together as one people. Till them we will just fight and kill each other, it is a shame aint it?

 

Yep, not all that much progress in the 6000 years that we've been living in large groups.

 

And now the world is crowded, especially the Old World, all of man's endeavors keep accelerating, and the gulf between the haves/have nots only widens. I doubt if Islam would be much the problem it is if the average Muslim had a pot to pee in and a window to throw it out of. Or even the hope of ever getting them.

 

I certainly see no reason to be very optimistic about some golden age of peace anytime soon.

 

- OS

[Hozzie]

?? The woman was "one of them", there was only the two. She definitely died in the back of the vehicle, took long time to get her out since they wouldn't just grab her with their hands.
 
Thing is, I can't find a vid or pic that shows that, but see a number of stories of them both dying in the van, though did find one that says his body was "next to" the van.
 
- OS

I simply meant him or her by them. If he was actually in the vehicle I think we would have seen them pulling him out as well. My money is it was him on the street. I would guess he was 20-25 yards from the vehicle. I think they are saying that is "close".

[superduty]

OS, they just need jobs. We've been told so. That would cure extremism.

[Oh Shoot]

I simply meant him or her by them. If he was actually in the vehicle I think we would have seen them pulling him out as well. My money is it was him on the street. I would guess he was 20-25 yards from the vehicle. I think they are saying that is "close".

 

Well, you're probably right.

[Sam1]

Just seen a new term floated on a news outlet "assault clothing"

Now they have something new to go after lol.

[bersaguy]

Well, I looked at all the pictures and the one thing I am completely sure of is...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ford SUV's are not bullet proof....................... :up:

[56FordGuy]

I'm sorry Blake but I couldn't disagree with you more. It sounds like you're blaming western countries for the violent behavior we are seeing. As we all know, Muslims have been violent for a long, long time. Far before the US and other countries got involved in the middle east. I agree we probably made things worse.

 

How do you explain all the violence and attacks that Muslims perform in other parts of the world that don't have their nose in the middle east? Hell, look at Africa. Anywhere there is a large concentration of Muslims is generally a pretty ####ty part of the world.

 

While I'm not as extreme as some of the members here in thinking that all Muslims are horrible, I'm also not naïve enough to think that it's only a small minority that want to kill us. I will not claim to be an expert on Islam but everything I've read leaves me genuinely concerned with our future.

 

I keep thinking back to that survey of Muslims living in England. Over 40% admitted to sympathizing with Bin Laden. That's just the ones that answered honestly.

 

Anytime someone suggests maybe we as a nation aren't the super greatest, most awesome inerrant country in the world people get upset. The idea that maybe we made our bed and now get to lie in it is more than some folks can handle. 

 

Yes, Islam has been violent for a long time. Other countries have been screwing with Muslim countries for eons as well, playing one against the other, appointing and removing leaders as we saw fit, funding this group or that etc and never allowing them to mature because it didn't suit our needs at the time. Why did Bin Laden want to fly planes into the World Trade center instead of Moscow or Big Ben? Why was 9-11 the second attempt by Muslims to destroy the WTC? Because the US has been needling, poking, and prodding over there for a very long time and they're tired of it. A lot of the middle east sees the US as a bully, continually picking on them. I can understand why 40% of Muslims agreed with Bin Laden that they were tired of being pushed around by what they saw as some outsider picking on them. 

 

Of course, that entire paragraph has hacked off the "YeehawNascarbarbecuefourwheeldrive" 'Mericans. How dare I insinuate that 'Merica was bad, or made a mistake. 

 

Whether we did or didn't, that's how the people attacking us see it. I don't believe Islam is completely gentle and loving right now, but I also don't buy for a second that America is just some innocent bystanding victim in all this either. Just like Christians no longer stone adulterers to death, I believe that given time to grow on their own the radical portions of Islam will fade away as well. Nobody has 1,000 years for that to happen though, so we keep picking and prodding and putzing around over there to make things 'better'.