HS Precision

[DaveTN]

Sam Weaver was shot in the back.?

He certainly was, but not by Lon Horiuchi. Horiuchi didn’t arrive until the next day.

That piece of filth Horiuchi took a first shot at Randy Weaver near the shed, striking him in the arm. As Weaver and Harris turned and ran for the cover of the shack, Horiuchi fired a second shot, again at someone's back. This was the round that killed an unarmed Vicki Weaver. Standing in her doorway, holding an infant.

This was no “gameâ€.

You go shoot at a cop and then take off running and see if you don’t get drilled in the back. These weren’t “victims†they were criminals.

Vicki Weaver was not standing in the doorway where Horiuchi could see here. He shot Harris; the round went through his arm, through the door and killed Vicki Weaver instantly. Harris put her in harms way.

This could have ended at any time prior to that. Weaver and Harris had made up there minds they were going to die. Too bad they lived and Sam and Vicki Weaver had to die.

Harris never fired his weapon, Dave. If you'd argue that he killed Vicki Weaver, then I know some democrats who'd try to convince you that Bush is over in Iraq "killing our troops". You use the same poor logic.

You start a criminal act that leads top the death of another (Even if they are shot by their intended victims or the cops) and you are responsible for their death.

Some of you really need to consider that in a few years, you too may be firearms fugitives of some sort. Just because the government is the government, that doesn't make them right. Who will be your master?

That’s tin foil hat Maybe you can see yourself as a cop killer; but I can’t see me ever pulling the trigger on a cop doing his job.

[towerclimber37]

He shot an active shooter and the bullet went through his arm, through the door, and killed her. He didn’t shoot at her.

Are you talking about his 14 year old son that got killed while they were busy killing a U.S. Marshall? He's an FBI agent not a Marshall.

I never heard that until right now, but quite frankly I don’t care what they said to him. He had already caused the death of his own son and his wife.

lets see. as I remember it, the "marshal" first shot the boy's dog from cover. the boy who had a .22 rifle and didn't know ANYTHING was going on until that time, turned to run, they shot him in the back, "because he was armed".

Mr. Weaver just wanted to be left alone. he was set up by the ATF because he wouldn't participate in a sting operation that they set up on some white supremacists. Mr. Weaver had been a decorated SF soldier that retired and just wanted to pursue his own interests. he cut a shotgun barrel 1MM too short, by the ATF standards, for an atf agent who was sent to befriend him and gain his confidence.

If that's what you call causing his wife's death and the death of his son, then hey...good for you. Me? I call them murderers. After that happened, I lost all respect for the ATF as a crime fighting organization and started seeing it for what it is. An American version of the Gestapo.

When Waco occurred I was skeptical. it COULD have happened like they said.

When Ruby Ridge happened, I realized I was wrong...the SAME thing happened. this time though, there could be no mistaking it for something else.

He was a sniper; he had a job to do. His job is killing people that need killing. As I understand it his orders were to kill all adult males that he had a clear shot at. That is what he was doing when Kevin Harris put Vicki Weaver in the line of fire; ending her life.

Nobody put Vicki Weaver in the line of fire as I recollect...it was outright murder. that's the reason Weavers' daughter was awarded 12 million dollars in a court of law.

as for him being a sniper and having a job to do...thats bull crap.

by the same lights, I could justify the killing of Jews by Stalin..after all, it was a government too. (he killed over 16 million Jews btw.) his men shouldn't have been held accountable for their actions..right?

How about Goering or Hesse? they didn't need to go to trial for their actions during the second world war...nah...they were "just following orders".

the national guard captain that was ordered to come and support the ATF and the FBI there, pulled his troops out and refused to participate. he KNEW what they were doing was murder.

That should tell you something right there.

If Ruby Ridge happened today the first responding Officers would engage and kill Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris. Then Weavers wife and maybe his son could be selling books and giving lectures instead of being dead.

what a horrible thing to say.

If ruby ridge happened today, to one of my friends here, I'd more than likely come to his aid and someone like horiuci wouldn't make it out of his hide spot. the rest of them? I am reasonably willing to bet that if 200-300 citizens showed up armed and demanded that they either cease fire and leave or be fired upon, I'm reasonably certain that they would back down and do what should have been done in the first place. pursue it in a court of law.

if they didn't...well, we'd just have to kill them all.

I do not advocate that as a habit...but I will tell you that I think the abuses of the ATF will not stop until they are disbanded. they have the tacit approval of people like barbara boxer, Harry reid and nancy pelosi, in congress. I think the ATF is their primary means of disarming the people so that they can pursue a socialist/communist agenda regardless of what the people want.

If it shocks you that I advocate killing of government agents, allow me to put it into perspective.

they shoot civilians every day! sometimes it's a justified shoot, sometimes not. they don't lose their life, they get administrative duty.

I think it's time the shoe was on the other foot. I think the government should be afraid of the people for a change.

the abuses of the ATF have been catalogued and are so numerous that I couldn't put them on 10 pages of paper, much less 1. so yes. I would say that I don't trust them. I don't like them and I have NO respect for them as a law enforcement agency.

as a group of thugs? yah. they are that, with badges to do as they please.

until they are cleaned up, reigned in and start abiding by the laws themselves, then they will serve only to abuse the people.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

He certainly was, but not by Lon Horiuchi. Horiuchi didn’t arrive until the next day.

This was no “gameâ€.

You go shoot at a cop and then take off running and see if you don’t get drilled in the back. These weren’t “victims†they were criminals.

The entire event was a slaughter, Dave.

Harris hadn't "shot at a cop" that day. Horiuchi just decided to take them out. From a great distance. From cover. As a sniper.

Vicki Weaver was not standing in the doorway where Horiuchi could see here. He shot Harris; the round went through his arm, through the door and killed Vicki Weaver instantly. Harris put her in harms way.

He didn't shoot her. Horiuchi did, and he did so while shooting at a man running away from him.

This could have ended at any time prior to that. Weaver and Harris had made up there minds they were going to die. Too bad they lived and Sam and Vicki Weaver had to die.

This could actually have never started. If the government didn't have such ridiculous laws, and if they hadn't used those laws to attempt to manipulate and then destroy Randy Weaver, then none of this would have happened.

You start a criminal act that leads top the death of another (Even if they are shot by their intended victims or the cops) and you are responsible for their death.

Nope. That's not even in the case law. You have to directly cause the death by your own hand. I think we all know who did that.

That’s tin foil hat Maybe you can see yourself as a cop killer; but I can’t see me ever pulling the trigger on a cop doing his job.

How many British "cops" do you think were killed by Americans during the revolution, Dave? Just make a guess. There were plenty of vetted, lawful magistrates and constables who fought for the British Crown. We killed many of them.

lets see. as I remember it, the "marshal" first shot the boy's dog from cover. the boy who had a .22 rifle and didn't know ANYTHING was going on until that time, turned to run, they shot him in the back, "because he was armed".

Yes. That's what happened. The agents spooked up the dogs by throwing rocks at the shack, and Sam Weaver and Harris came out hoping the dogs were on to game. When the government shot the dog, Sam fired into the darkness.

Mr. Weaver just wanted to be left alone. he was set up by the ATF because he wouldn't participate in a sting operation that they set up on some white supremacists. Mr. Weaver had been a decorated SF soldier that retired and just wanted to pursue his own interests. he cut a shotgun barrel 1MM too short, by the ATF standards, for an atf agent who was sent to befriend him and gain his confidence.

Yeap. Imagine a reasonable man wanting to be free. Perish the thought.

[Guest Astra900]

Everything Tower said +1000000000000000

Hey tower, I dunno where you are, but if it ever happens to somebody like you, and I can get to you in time, I got more than one 168g Sierra matchking HPBT that I would gladly drive through some worthless douche like horiuchi's heart. Ohh wait some useless f()kin waste of perfectly good oxygen like that, ain't got a heart.

AND, if I ever survive any altercation such as Randy Weaver did, I'll guarantee you it will bother my conscience so bad, I might toss and turn at night for 1 or even 2 seconds before I drift off to sleep.

:poop:on horiuchi, on who he works for, and on anyone like him.

There, I feel better:)

[Punisher84]

That’s tin foil hat Maybe you can see yourself as a cop killer; but I can’t see me ever pulling the trigger on a cop doing his job.

What if that cop's JOB is to disarm you and strip you of your liberties? I doubt anyone on this board would EVER condone dropping the hammer on anyone in a LE role of any sort, but just because you swear an oath and have a badge doesn't mean you are exempt or free to do whatever the hell you want.

People that trust to much in the government ultimately deserve everything they get from said government.

[DaveTN]

lets see. as I remember it, the "marshal" first shot the boy's dog from cover. the boy who had a .22 rifle and didn't know ANYTHING was going on until that time, turned to run, they shot him in the back, "because he was armed".

Mr. Weaver just wanted to be left alone. he was set up by the ATF because he wouldn't participate in a sting operation that they set up on some white supremacists. Mr. Weaver had been a decorated SF soldier that retired and just wanted to pursue his own interests. he cut a shotgun barrel 1MM too short, by the ATF standards, for an atf agent who was sent to befriend him and gain his confidence.

If that's what you call causing his wife's death and the death of his son, then hey...good for you. Me? I call them murderers. After that happened, I lost all respect for the ATF as a crime fighting organization and started seeing it for what it is. An American version of the Gestapo.

When Waco occurred I was skeptical. it COULD have happened like they said.

When Ruby Ridge happened, I realized I was wrong...the SAME thing happened. this time though, there could be no mistaking it for something else.

Nobody put Vicki Weaver in the line of fire as I recollect...it was outright murder. that's the reason Weavers' daughter was awarded 12 million dollars in a court of law.

as for him being a sniper and having a job to do...thats bull crap.

by the same lights, I could justify the killing of Jews by Stalin..after all, it was a government too. (he killed over 16 million Jews btw.) his men shouldn't have been held accountable for their actions..right?

How about Goering or Hesse? they didn't need to go to trial for their actions during the second world war...nah...they were "just following orders".

the national guard captain that was ordered to come and support the ATF and the FBI there, pulled his troops out and refused to participate. he KNEW what they were doing was murder.

That should tell you something right there.

what a horrible thing to say.

If ruby ridge happened today, to one of my friends here, I'd more than likely come to his aid and someone like horiuci wouldn't make it out of his hide spot. the rest of them? I am reasonably willing to bet that if 200-300 citizens showed up armed and demanded that they either cease fire and leave or be fired upon, I'm reasonably certain that they would back down and do what should have been done in the first place. pursue it in a court of law.

if they didn't...well, we'd just have to kill them all.

I do not advocate that as a habit...but I will tell you that I think the abuses of the ATF will not stop until they are disbanded. they have the tacit approval of people like barbara boxer, Harry reid and nancy pelosi, in congress. I think the ATF is their primary means of disarming the people so that they can pursue a socialist/communist agenda regardless of what the people want.

If it shocks you that I advocate killing of government agents, allow me to put it into perspective.

they shoot civilians every day! sometimes it's a justified shoot, sometimes not. they don't lose their life, they get administrative duty.

I think it's time the shoe was on the other foot. I think the government should be afraid of the people for a change.

the abuses of the ATF have been catalogued and are so numerous that I couldn't put them on 10 pages of paper, much less 1. so yes. I would say that I don't trust them. I don't like them and I have NO respect for them as a law enforcement agency.

as a group of thugs? yah. they are that, with badges to do as they please.

until they are cleaned up, reigned in and start abiding by the laws themselves, then they will serve only to abuse the people.

Tower I have no respect for the ATF or the IRS. I think they are both a band of criminals and should be disbanded. I don’t fear the ATF because I won’t be breaking any laws that can cause them to make me a target. I do fear the IRS because I don’t have to break any laws for them to ruin my life.

But you guys want to boycott a company because they have a letter on their brochure from someone that you think did the wrong thing 16 years ago.

Not that it really matters but randy weaver did nor retire; he was discharged after three years. Yes he was SF; but was he decorated for anything?

I’m not sure I understand the leap you are making from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City>Waco</st1:City> to Ruby Ridge? Ruby Ridge was before <st1:City>Waco.</st1:City>

<st1:City></st1:City>

I’m not saying that he was “just following ordersâ€. I’m saying that he was given a green light to kill all adult males in the vicinity of the cabin that refused to surrender. I simply do not have a problem with that. Weaver and Harris made a decision to try to kill cops.

There was a lawful warrant for weaver’s arrest and they decided to try to kill the Marshals that were there to try to get him. They did kill one.

If I had arrived on the scene as an FBI sniper and found that they had killed a cop and had been given every opportunity to surrender I would have killed them and called it a day. It’s just too bad that his aim was off; he should have turned them both off like a switch.

Jews, Stalin, Goering, Hesse? Come on man have a decent conversation don’t turn into a nut case.

[Guest Astra900]

Weaver and Harris made a decision to try to kill cops.

I think they were trying to kill men who were invading their home. Kings to him for having the balls to do what the rest of our spineless country will not. I wish he would have had better support.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Jews, Stalin, Goering, Hesse? Come on man have a decent conversation don’t turn into a nut case.

“Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.â€

--Martin Luther King, Jr.

[Guest Astra900]

AND supported by the public majority. So that made it alright, did it?

[DaveTN]

What if that cop's JOB is to disarm you and strip you of your liberties?

I would have to deal with that when it happened.

I doubt anyone on this board would EVER condone dropping the hammer on anyone in a LE role of any sort, but just because you swear an oath and have a badge doesn't mean you are exempt or free to do whatever the hell you want.

Correct.

People that trust to much in the government ultimately deserve everything they get from said government.

I don’t trust the government at all; I’m just sick over what just happened in this election.

But I trust cops, unless they give me a reason not to.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

The warrant for Weaver's arrest was actually "faulty". It was issued per procedure, but the issuing judge was a hack.

Weaver had been summonsed, according to the documents he received, to appear on the 20th of March, 1991. His actual hearing date was the 20th of February. The government dropped the ball with their paperwork. They sent him a summons with the wrong date. A grand jury later even indicted Weaver for failure to appear. The grand jury had not been informed that the government had sent Weaver paperwork with the wrong date. They were lied to, and they handed down an indictment accordingly.

So, what does the government do about its mistake? They send a team of snipers to serve a BS warrant.

[Smith]

The whole thing was a mess. The Marshall's over inflated their account which lead to the FBI over reacting (their own admission) and put a lot of people in very difficult positions. To blame Horiuchi is a little lame. He was acting on orders from above, who admittedly over reacted based on the Marshall's account. The Weavers summarily could have ended the whole thing a lot sooner. Bad info seems to be the biggest reason for the debacle on both sides of this whole mess. Could have, should have. Things should have been different, but nobody knew what they knew till after the fact and then it was a "oh, crap!" In fact it was only after it was over the FBI found out how bad the Marshall's had lied about the initial account of first contact. I even saw the lead FBI agent in tears when he recounted his state of mind when he discovered in the investigation what the real scenario was.

Very sad and could have been handled a lot different and I blame the Marshals for exaggerating and escalating a benign situation. They could have straitened it all out, but when it all blew up the cowered. Seems to have worked the FBI and Weavers get all the blame.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Smith

[BryanP]

When Waco occurred I was skeptical. it COULD have happened like they said.

When Ruby Ridge happened, I realized I was wrong...the SAME thing happened. this time though, there could be no mistaking it for something else.

That's a rather odd order in which to have a revelation, considering that Ruby Ridge took place in 1992 and Waco took place in 1993.

[Punisher84]

I would have to deal with that when it happened.

Correct.

I don’t trust the government at all; I’m just sick over what just happened in this election.

But I trust cops, unless they give me a reason not to.

I can live with that. You know me well enough from my posts that I am VERY pro-cop. Somethings still just don't sit right with me sometimes. I guess I'm just a little to John Wayne.

[DaveTN]

"Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please." Mark Twain

That’s a great sig line. It couldn’t be more appropriate than in this thread.

[deerslayer]

I'm no fan of Horiuchi or the ATF. Whatever the case, why would a company that produces stocks for precision rifles want an endorsement from a controversial sniper who shot someone in the arm?

[towerclimber37]

*sigh

Dave, I guess we can agree to disagree. I think that horiuchi is a ****maggot. he's also a failure as well..if he was given a green light to kill all males, then how did that SOB end up killing only a female?

when he was questioned about his screwup, all he said was "will this mess up my chance for promotion?"

I myself understand the mindset that is required to kill. I've had to use that particular one before...but I can not condone someone who will kill whomever he pleases and uses the government to do so.

and hey..if a cop came to my door and wanted to pull some crap like the atf?

you're dang right I would kill them if I had the opportunity.

the government agency (the atf in this case) used its' power to get revenge on Randy Weaver for not helping them with their own agenda.

Mr. Weaver didn't want to work for the government anymore. I can agree with that. last time I worked for the government, someone took some shots at me.

so they fabricate a case and go to "arrest" mr. weaver. I'm thinking they did it in the same manner that the Waco warrant was served. not by knocking on the door..but by sneaking up to the house with weapons at the ready and no warrant visible...which to my mind says they want to fight.

so hell yah, I'd kill someone who tried that.

because you're an officer of the law doesn't make you some knight in shining armor. I know quite a few of them that are in prison now because they chose to do things that were dispicable. I personally know a detective that was fired for planting evidence. I don't speak to him much anymore.

the only difference between federal and local law enforcement is that it's harder to fire those bastards when they do wrong.

[towerclimber37]

That's a rather odd order in which to have a revelation, considering that Ruby Ridge took place in 1992 and Waco took place in 1993.

Bryan, that's because I watched waco happen and found out about ruby ridge later...

I'm not perfect.

[DaveTN]

I'm not perfect.

None of us are.

[Guest c.a.s.]

I'm no fan of Horiuchi or the ATF. Whatever the case, why would a company that produces stocks for precision rifles want an endorsement from a controversial sniper who shot someone in the arm?

Context of the letter.

It is a very important aspect that I haven't seen addressed by many, and those that actually looked at that aspect were yelled down.

That is a letter from the FBI as their "review" of the product as the winner of a governmental contract. Lon was the manager of that program, so his signature goes on it. No one really seems to care about that, or even attempts to hide it in some cases.

[Mark@Sea]

He shot an active shooter and the bullet went through his arm, through the door, and killed her. He didn’t shoot at her..

According to his log, he knew she was there. At the very least, negligent homicide.

I never heard that until right now, but quite frankly I don’t care what they said to him. He had already caused the death of his own son and his wife.

I don't see how that conclusion could be reached.

He was a sniper; he had a job to do. His job is killing people that need killing. As I understand it his orders were to kill all adult males that he had a clear shot at. That is what he was doing when Kevin Harris put Vicki Weaver in the line of fire; ending her life.

Illegal ROE (which every other sniper refused to follow). Whats' that bit about following illegal orders?

If Ruby Ridge happened today the first responding Officers would engage and kill Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris. Then Weavers wife and maybe his son could be selling books and giving lectures instead of being dead.

Yes, and the responding officers would be in prison. Last I checked, murder committed by police officer, or federal marshall, is still murder.

Either you don't know what happened, or you are not someone I'd care to have darken my door.

Excellent summary of fact (Thanks, Al Norris commenting @ Ahabs' blog)

The shotguns that Weaver modified for the ATF informant were technically termed a Short Barreled Shotgun. However, it was not that the barrels were less than 18 inches, it was that the overall length of the shotgun was less than 26 inches (18-§921(a)(6) USC). That is, the stock of the shotgun was modified (cut) to make the firearms in question, unlawful. In all, the Government claimed the barrels were shortened, the defense claimed that it was the stocks that were shortened but nevertheless, Weaver shortened nothing. The truth is that one stock was shortened on one shotgun and the barrel was shortened on the other. This discrepancy alone, was the probable cause for the Jury not believing the Government.

At trial, the government could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Weaver made this alteration. Weaver’s contention was that the ATF informant made the alteration, because Weaver sold him a lawful firearm. The amount of time between the “badgering of the ATF and the sell of the firearms, the time lag of the ATF in attempting to get Weaver to be an inside informant for the ATF, and the time involved in getting a Grand Jury to indict Weaver on the firearm charge, all worked in his favor. In short, the Jury believed his conspiracy story.

US Marshall Deegan was killed during an exchange of gunfire between Sammy, Harris and Deegan’s surveillance team. At trial, the Government could not prove who shot first, thus rendering a verdict of Not Guilty on that charge. The Jury determined that the fatal shot that killed Sammy was as he was running away. Sammy had disengaged. It could not be determined whether Harris or Sammy shot Deegan (the bullet was too badly fragmented for forensics), nor when the killing shot was made.

The HRT Supervisor (Eugene Glenn) changed the ROE to shoot on sight, during a communication with the new FBI operations handler ( Larry Potts), while the handler was in flight to Idaho, in direct violation of the Agency’s long standing rules. Lon Horiuchi was the only FBI sniper to implement the rule change. The other precision shooters protested and would not fire, except as required by the “old†rules.

At trial, using Horiuchi’s own notebook, it was proved that he knew Vicki Weaver was in the doorway, contrary to the Governments efforts to make the shooting seem accidental.

The FBI new that Vicki Weaver was dead (or gravely injured), as evidenced by the type of taunts they used during the latter part of the siege.

The Jury, after 3 weeks of deliberations, dismissed all charges except the original charge of failure to appear. See United States v. Weaver, No. 92-080-N-EJL (D. Idaho June 3, 1993).

In 2001, after an en banc appeal (Idaho v. Horiuchi, 253 F.3d 359 (9th Cir. 2001)), Horiuchi could have been prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter by the State, but the (then) newly elected County Prosecutor (Brett Benson) declined to continue the case and dismissed the charges (Benson now works full time for the Idaho AG’s office - nice political move for him!). Stephen Yagman, the special prosecutor assigned to this case in 1997, vehemently disagreed with the decision. The Statute of limitations has now ran out and Horiuchi can not now be charged.

[DaveTN]

Either you don't know what happened, or you are not someone I'd care to have darken my door.

I’m obviously the last MF in the world you would want to see if you are armed and killing people. I would have killed Weaver and Harris and went to lunch. The dirt bag caused the death of his wife and kid and then got a payday for it; and Harris killed a cop.

Screw a bunch of “Rules of Engagement†this isn’t a video game; cops go by the law. There is no law in any of the 50 states that I know of (but admittedly I don’t know all the states laws) that allows an active shooter a free pass. They all had the opportunity to surrender and refused; too bad for them.

The <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>BOA</st1:stockticker> shooters lowed their weapons a couple of times and ceased fire; did everyone need to quit shooting at them???

[Fallguy]

I think both sides have been expressed and debated enough.

Time to move on to something else.