FBI Returning to 9mm

[Pete123]

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is ditching the .40 caliber Smith & Wesson to return to the 9mm jacketed hollow-point luger, The Washington Post reports.

The 9mm was once the standard round for the FBI, but after the infamous 1986 Miami shootout that left 2 agents dead and five agents wounded the Bureau surmised that the 9mm did not have the firepower to effectively pierce body armor. The FBI tried a new round, the 10mm, before settling on the shorter .40 S&W, which is used by many law enforcement agencies today.

However, according to Ray Cook, the chief of the FBI’s Defensive Systems Unit, the bureau began to reconsider the 9mm as early as 2007 because of advances in technology. Ballistics tests showed the rounds used in the 1986 shootout tested lowest on the scale while new 9mm rounds like the 147 grain Speer Gold Dot G2 allow for more penetration, the most important facet of the FBI’s testing.

Cook says the lighter bullet yields 12 to 18 inches of penetration into a human target and is more effective than the rounds carried in 1986. The lighter round also allows agents to fire more accurately in high-pressure situations like shootouts.

This change can have far-reaching implications for other law enforcement agencies and police departments, who often follow the FBI’s lead on choices like ammunition. 

“When we do something, local departments take note,” Cook said. “They see that if it works for us, it’ll work for them, too.”

When the bureau changes ammunition it will also change what firearms their 13,000 agents use. The FBI has used Glock variants chambered in .40 S&W since 1997, but a request for proposal (RFP) on a new handgun was posted in early October with an anticipated award date of June 2016.

The contract, potentially worth $85 million, has very specific guidelines for both compact and full-size pistols. According to the RFP, they must be striker fired, have ambidextrous magazine catches and slide stop levers, no manual external safety, no de-cocking lever, and no finger grooves on the frame, along with other guidelines.

[Erik88]

So, will Glock ditch the finger grooves in order to compete?

[CommsNBombs]

So the feds could not handle the 10mm and got the 40?

Now they cant even handle the 40?

Irony...

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[JReedEsq]

I heard more than a year ago that there is internal push toward M&P. I predict that M&P and Glock are the only real contenders, with M&P favored as a quality American product and Glock favored as a proven, quality product that many of their agents are already comfortable with... Edited November 6, 2015 by JReedEsq

[sschrick]

Is there any gun on the market now that will meet all their requirements?  Or will this be a custom built gun?

[E4 No More]

So, will Glock ditch the finger grooves in order to compete?

I would hope so. I'd like to get a 20 but the grooves are in the wrong place for people with large hands. My fingers rest mostly on the ridges. :shrug:

[E4 No More]

Is there any gun on the market now that will meet all their requirements?  Or will this be a custom built gun?

Sig P320.

[Smith]

So messed up. The Miami shootout was based on .38 spl and the .40 is a notoriously poor body armor penetrator. 9mm on the other hand has always penetrated body armor and light armor, which is why the military uses it for their side arms ammo.
Typical government ignorance and misinformation they use to make decisions.

[Erik88]

I heard more than a year ago that there is internal push toward M&P. I predict that M&P and Glock are the only real contenders, with M&P favored as a quality American product and Glock favored as a proven, quality product that many of their agents are already comfortable with...

When I handle the M&P guns I always feel and see hints of cheapness. I don't put them on the same dependability level as Glock. Just my opinion. Several departments have abandoned the M&P line.

Admittedly, some have left Glock but they still dominate the market. Edited November 6, 2015 by Erik88

[JReedEsq]

Eric, I am with you I guess since I own Glocks and no M&Ps. The agents I spoke with indicated that the M&P is considered reliable but neither seemed to be eager to switch to another platform when so many of them have so many rounds down range with Glock. They may not all be firearms enthusiasts, but I get the impression that they have more range time than many LEOs.

[JAB]

So messed up. The Miami shootout was based on .38 spl and the .40 is a notoriously poor body armor penetrator. 9mm on the other hand has always penetrated body armor and light armor, which is why the military uses it for their side arms ammo.
Typical government ignorance and misinformation they use to make decisions.

 

Actually, the Miami shootout was ENDED by an agent using .38 Special.  Agent Mireles had a .357 loaded with .38 Special (+P, maybe) and that was the gun that finally ended the gunfight.  That was because Mireles had cajones the size of church bells and, although wounded, walked toward the car in which Matix and Platt were trying to escape, firing his revolver the whole tim - hitting Matix two or three times in the face - until he was finally beside the car and reaching into the window to shoot Platt.   I am of the opinion that no handgun caliber (short of possibly full-on .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum) would have fared any better than 9mm with the ammo available at the time.  I seem to remember reading that the perpetrators received 9mm wounds that would have eventually been fatal but nothing that would have caused an immediate stop.

Edited November 6, 2015 by JAB

[JAB]

So the feds could not handle the 10mm and got the 40?

Now they cant even handle the 40?

Irony...

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

Heck, S&W created the .40 in collaboration with the FBI as a direct result of the Miami shootout because the agency wanted to blame the 9mm for the tragedy and some of their agents couldn't handle 10mm.  I don't know, however, if this is so much about not being able to handle the .40 as it is about modern 9mm ammo being every bit as good performance wise with less recoil and (although I didn't see it specifically mentioned) higher capacity in the same sized pistols.

[CommsNBombs]

A handgun that will fit that bill is the HK VP9 almost perfectly. Stock it has ambi-slide locks, ambi-mag releases, night sights, awesome trigger, no finger grooves, 15+1 9mm capacity and it's full size.

 

Just need a compact VP9...

 

Granted I will not be surprised if they just go Glock 17 and 19.

Edited November 6, 2015 by CommsNBombs

[GlockSpock]

Team 9mm!


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[VERO1]

So does this mean they will be releasing some of the 92 bazillion rounds of 40 call ammo they bought last year? It's surplus now, so we should be able to pick it up cheap. Right?

[nightrunner]

A handgun that will fit that bill is the HK VP9 almost perfectly. Stock it has ambi-slide locks, ambi-mag releases, night sights, awesome trigger, no finger grooves, 15+1 9mm capacity and it's full size.

Just need a compact VP9...

Granted I will not be surprised if they just go Glock 17 and 19.

Vp9 has finger grooves, maybe not as pronounced as a Glock but it still has them

[nightrunner]

Glock is out not only for the finger grooves but the ambi mag release as well. They tried it on a version of the Gen3 21 and never could get it to work reliably.

And who makes a striker fired pistol with a decocker anyways?

[DaveTN]

I don’t know why this surprises anyone; this is the same government that took 45ACP and .308 away from our troops and gave them the weak azz 9mm and .223.

As far as handguns; no government agency should be able to buy anything from a foreign manufacturer unless there is no American made product that can meet the requirements. My own dollars don’t go to Glock and I don’t want my tax dollars going to them either. The M&P is a proven performer; it should hands down get the nod.

[mikegideon]

I don’t know why this surprises anyone; this is the same government that took 45ACP and .308 away from our troops and gave them the weak azz 9mm and .223.

As far as handguns; no government agency should be able to buy anything from a foreign manufacturer unless there is no American made product that can meet the requirements. My own dollars don’t go to Glock and I don’t want my tax dollars going to them either. The M&P is a proven performer; it should hands down get the nod.

 

The 223 AND the 9mm made sense for the military. More rounds = more hits, and the old stuff weighs twice as much. As much crap as our guys have to carry now, 308 would be a horrible choice for the average combat guy.

 

And... the guys in the Miami shootout would have still got their asses kicked if they were carrying 40... by one of those weak ass .223's

Edited November 6, 2015 by mikegideon

[Patton]

Sig P320.

All the guys and girls I talk to say this or a S&W.

[JReedEsq]

 

Granted I will not be surprised if they just go Glock 17 and 19.

 

Since the Glock 27 is the popular off duty pistol, it is more like Glock 17 & 26 or M&P full-size and compact. 

[Erik88]

\The M&P is a proven performer; it should hands down get the nod.

 

Wow. I thought Glock fanboys were bad...

 

How do you explain all the numerous departments abandoning the M&P lineup. Hell, the entire Atlanta PD dropped them after just a few years.

 

I'll never forget Hickok45 getting his brand new M&P and finding a cracked slides.... I guess that's "proven" as you say.

[jgradyc]

I dislike finger grooves on anything. If you really want them, you can add them with a Hogue grip, but you can't get rid of them without a very costly frame mod.

[E4 No More]

The 223 AND the 9mm made sense for the military. More rounds = more hits, and the old stuff weighs twice as much. As much crap as our guys have to carry now, 308 would be a horrible choice for the average combat guy.

 

And... the guys in the Miami shootout would have still got their asses kicked if they were carrying 40... by one of those weak ass .223's

Only because they tend to spray and pray rather than aim - particularly in Vietnam. Can't say as I'd enjoy getting hit with either rifle round though, but the military being confined to FMJ throws out the 9mm for me. Personally, I'd like to see them have rounds that vaporize the enemy upon impact. :)

[1gewehr]

Caliber had very little to do with the FBI failures in the infamous Miami shootout.  It was poor decision-making on the part of nearly every FBI agent involved.

1)  They knew that they were after cold-blooded murderers.  Yet not ONE FBI agent bothered to put on their protective vests!

2)  Two agents were busy boffing a waitress several blocks away while the whole thing went down.  They were the ones with the MP5s, of course.

3)  At least two agents put their handguns on the seat of their car before running into something!  Car stops, gun goes flying out of reach.

4)  Several agents emptied their weapons with no reloads.

 

Most of the serious injuries to the FBI came from a Mini14 in 5.56mm.  This started the huge move by police away from 9mm submachine guns towards the small 5.56mm rifles.

 

Few handgun calibers are reliable at stopping a determined attacker.  Simple physics and anatomy dictate that.  As usual, the lesson from the Miami shootout is that if you KNOW you will need to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!!

 

The purpose of a handgun is to let you fight your way to a long gun!