I don't understand all of the suicides.

[Randall53]

I'm very troubled by the number of suicides by our vets that are returning home from the Middle East. My son has spent 2 tours over there in the Army. He's only 22. He joined the NG at 17. He's now a Sargent and is planning a military career. His mom and I worry about this problem. I know there are many on here who have served over there. What is it causing this? can anyone shed some light? I read yesterday where 4 NG members from the same Indiana unit have committed suicide: http://http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/10/26/4-veterans-from-one-Indiana-guard-unit-have-committed-suicide.html  He never talks about his experiences over there. He had to pass and obtained a secret clearance status for the last trip to Afghanistan and said he can't say anything about it, even where he went in the country. We worry a lot because no one seems to know what is happening to these vets. I can't help but wonder what the hell is going on over there that is happening at such a frightening rate. 

[tennesseetiger]

It is very sad to see the suicide numbers sky rocket like they have been the last few years. The number of homeless vets is also another staggering number I don't like to look at.

[btq96r]

Two of my four deployments had a suicide in the unit, and in both cases, it was problems at home that weren’t necessarily exasperated by the deployment leading to the Soldier taking their own life.  I’ll concede the deployments might have prevented them from their situation getting better.

 

This Washington Post article, while a bit outdated, does show some good info about how combat service is not the driver of suicides in the military, and links to some in depth studies.   It also goes into how military suicides may outpace the civilian world, but not by as much as you think, and that they have gone up at the same times.  This is a society wide issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/five-myths-about-suicide-in-the-military/2014/11/07/61ceb0aa-637b-11e4-836c-83bc4f26eb67_story.html

 

As to what causes it, best I can tell, it’s just life’s stressors adding up.  Some people can handle what life deals them, some cannot.  There is no set standard of what people “should” be able to take, as we are all the sum of our life and experiences, and everybody has their own breaking point, even if they don’t think they do.

 

Regarding your son, I do wonder why he told you he can’t tell you what he did, or even where he was on a deployment.  Something as simple as what base he was at, or what the summary of his duties were do not dwell into classified information.  As a rule of thumb, things like missions, equipment, and, information derived while over there are the verboten topics.  Anyone who deploys should be able to tell some tales of general life, the boredom and monotony, and stories something funny or dumb that they, or people in their unit did.

Edited October 27, 2015 by btq96r

[MacGyver]

There are a whole lot of questions about this right now, that a bunch of us are really struggling with - and for good reason.  Whether it's actually the combat service, the protracted lengths of deployments or the lack of services as our soldiers transition home, we're not doing a good enough job at preventing suicides.  A lot of people I've spoken to regarding suicide note isolation and lack of community - whether real or perceived.

 

But, here's an offer that any TGO member should be aware of and take advantage of where needed.  We've got a whole lot of members who have been where you (proverbially) stand.  Whether it's transitioning out of service, dealing with stuff at home, feeling the guilt of coming home when your brothers aren't - or whatever, we've got people who have been where you are and understand what you're dealing with.  Please reach out to someone here!

 

We've had some members for whom a lot of us have cared deeply take their own life.  There are a lot of us who think about some of them almost every time we log in.  Every time I see the "What are you listening to now" thread, my heart skips a little bit.

 

No one here should let themselves or a family member get to that point.  Community is worth nothing if it doesn't support it's own in their time of need.  

 

Please let one of us know if we can ever have a conversation with someone who is struggling.

[bud]

. Edited January 6, 2016 by bud

[CommsNBombs]

The Army (I cannot speak for other services) does not do enough to identify and prevent this sort of thing in my honest opinion.

We get some canned propagandist-esque materials shoved down our throats in form of ACE - Ask, Care and Escort then the Chain of Command and the Chaplain will say that you should get help.

This is a multi-faceted failure.

1) They place the responsibility (and blame) on the "battle buddies" when it happens CID will reach into everyones ass, the Chain will berate the Section-and-Below leadership and nothing gets done.

2) As much as they love saying it, getting help is STILL stigmatized. It is still looked down upon and the leadership (especially in the 101st, didnt experience it w/ Group) will look at you as you are trying to "cop out" of service...before I digress too much I will share a story.

- We had a dude in my Section here at 1BCT who was a 25B (computer/network) guy. They forced attached him to an infantry company to be their radio guy for deployment and threw him all around the FOBs during our rotation into the Nangahar. After they got back (I was on Rear D as I just got there) they reintigrated him to our unit. He was kinda jacked up but pressed forward - he shouldered a HUGE load during our training cycle and he finally snapped during JRTC. All this time they were belittling and making fun of him. When we got back he got put in an outpatient center and was contiunally mocked and belitted. He finally got a med retirement for GAD, PTSD and Major Depression but his name is still tossed around and mocked. Its disgusting.

The reason guys choose suicide is many - Survivor's Syndrome, divorce/spousal infidelity, high stress, combat, getting blown up, family seperation.

As MacGyver said - please, reach out to us. It is harder on a forum since we do not physically always see each other. It is NOT looked down upon, and anyone who belittles you - they can get fucked. And you tell me who said it and Ill break their fucking ankles.

I have been there. My brothers and sisters in arms have been there. This lifestyle is rough. I dont care if you are commo, EOD, a Ranger, intel, whatever - it impacts everyone in a different way.

It is something that is mentioned but never given enough creedence - again, reach out to someone. It could be me, MacGyver, a priest, anyone.

Hope that answered your question. Sorry for the long winded reply.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[R1100R]

Damn Phone Edited October 27, 2015 by R1100R

[R1100R]

I'm a Medical SGM and get the quarterly suicide reports. They are disturbing. It encompasses all ranks and the methods used to commit suicide are varied compared to the norm. This is a weekly subject at meetings with my Command and is taken very seriously.

It is good that we have a large community here to talk to. If someone needs help to navigate the system I'm here to help. I deal with this quite a bit. The Reserves have surpassed the Active duty in suicides a long time ago due to the confusion in where to get care until the last couple of years. Things have been getting better to a certain extent. Edited October 27, 2015 by R1100R

[Sam1]

Never know what is going on in someone's head, but for any of those of us who have been deployed to hot zones, you know your life is never the same after.  Even if you never get shot at or shoot at someone, you still worry about it 24/7 without break.  Go to sleep not knowing if a mortar round is coming into your building while you sleep and wake up not knowing if a suicide bomber is going to hit the gate you're pulling guard on.  Walking to get lunch on base, not knowing if some random sniper fire is coming in, or when you're out on patrol going through houses and there's a guy with a scatter gun standing on the other side waiting.

 

As I've always said, suicide is for quitters but don't take that the wrong way, I'd rather see $500,000 in tax money spent getting a vet help so they don't reach that stage than to just let them off themselves.  It's hard to adjust from the life of active military to the civilian world, especially when you go in young to a combat arms MOS and then you get dumped into the civilian world with not skills other than being a good janitor.  Going from operating a $3,000,000 tank, blowing stuff up, living eating breathing 16-20 hours a day for years and then ending back at some retail store to be a mid-level manager is a shock to the system that is immeasurable.

 

Although I'm not a psychiatrist or read a single study in why these happen, I believe that the military should REQUIRE soldiers to learn a civilian trade while they are in, either via college or a trade school, so they have a skill they are familiar with and useful when they get out.  That won't eliminate every incident, but I think it would result in a serious reduction.

 

I'd be interested to see the correlational data between this and MOS, and comparison between commissioned percentages (usually already have college/trade to go into after) and enlisted members with no college or trade.

[Grand Torino]

I can speak only from personal experience so take it for what it's worth. I spent two one year deployments to Vietnam and lost two of my closest friends to suicide. They didn't do it due to the things they experienced but rather what was going on in their personal lives at home and the attitude of the American public toward returning servicemen in general. Without going into details one guys wife was cheating on him and the other's family were terrible parents and siblings by basically labeling him a baby killer even though it couldn't have been further from the truth. He worked in the Motor Pool. 

 

Neither of these guys for whatever reason couldn't deal with life and shitty parents and siblings. For whatever reasons they could deal with life.

 

My son spent 4 deployments total to Afghanistan and Iraq and lost a close friend to suicide once again due to personal reasons at home....not what happened over there. This guy was like a brother to him and still feels terrible about not being able to help him better cope.

 

So it seems like the problem in these cases was the feeling of long distance separation somehow caused these problems when in reality these problems would have occurred regardless if the were home or not. I believe these folks for whatever reason didn't have the tools do deal with life's problems before they ever joined the military. Just my two cents.

[Oh Shoot]

I doubt if reliable enough data exists to compare suicide rates between contemporary vets vs say Vietnam, Korean, WWII, but one major difference in our contemporary armed forces is that there is no draft.

 

Meaning, I wonder if having a total volunteer makeup of the forces rather than a cross section of the military eligible population doesn't somehow attract a sample that's more prone to serious psychological problems from the gitgo, and then throw in the combat zone experience to acerbate things to boot.

 

And no, I don't mean you have to nuts to enlist :), but I do wonder if the all volunteer nature of the endeavor gets a higher share of ultimately suicide prone folks than either the population in general, or even previous military populations when the draft was in effect which included such a cross section of the general population.

 

- OS

Edited October 27, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[R1100R]

The suicide rate in the military is on par with the cilvilan population. But is high for a certain group. Demographics and age are also on par with civilian population.

[bersaguy]

Suicides by military personnel is not anything new. It just gets more attention now than it did back in the Vietnam era. Like GT said some guys didn't do it because of what we were facing over there but it was what was going on back home in many cases. Also back then many of the young men that were drafted and forced to serve at such a young age really messed them up.  Far to many young men went to Vietnam were expecting to be killed. You could see it in their eyes when they arrived in country and didn't have a clue how to approach anything. They were just told to follow orders and they would be fine. Of course that was told to them by an officer here that had never see combat so it was easy for them to say...........JMHO

[ncomarc]

I agree with all stated above, the formulas are different - one thing that pisses me off is the fact that because the ARMY needs a certain number of Soldiers to get allotted a certain amount of funding, Drill Instructors are pressured to keep Soldiers even though they should be kicked out.

[btq96r]

It is something that is mentioned but never given enough creedence - again, reach out to someone. It could be me, MacGyver, a priest, anyone.

 

Add me to that list.  I'll never turn away a veteran that needs to talk.

 

 

It's hard to adjust from the life of active military to the civilian world, especially when you go in young to a combat arms MOS and then you get dumped into the civilian world with not skills other than being a good janitor.  Going from operating a $3,000,000 tank, blowing stuff up, living eating breathing 16-20 hours a day for years and then ending back at some retail store to be a mid-level manager is a shock to the system that is immeasurable.

 

I hated it at the time, but the best thing that could ever happen to me was to be put on a battalion staff for my last few years in the Army, including my last deployment.

 

I enlisted into a high speed, low drag, closed to women, awesome MOS.  Had a blast doing it for six years in light infantry brigades, and wouldn't have changed a thing during that time.  But then the Army got rid of that MOS and I became an intel analyst, and moved to the intel section for an artillery battalion.  While I loved my old job, being able to carry a really heavy rucksack, camouflage ground surveillance sensors, and live in a hide sight aren't really transferable skills in a civilian market.  Being on battalion staff, all the work that came with that made me a very capable worker in white collar jobs, and gave me enough practical application to know what I needed to work on.

 

I left the Army in early 2009, when the economy was a mess.  I was able to get a very good job as a contractor because I was able to show the employer I was able to showcase the skills I had learned working on staff.  It also helped me get ready for college, and if all goes according to plan, I'll be graduating in December of next year.

 

Who knows what would have happened if I wasn't prepared to go out into the world after the Army. 

[CommsNBombs]

Add me to that list. I'll never turn away a veteran that needs to talk.



I hated it at the time, but the best thing that could ever happen to me was to be put on a battalion staff for my last few years in the Army, including my last deployment.

I enlisted into a high speed, low drag, closed to women, awesome MOS. Had a blast doing it for six years in light infantry brigades, and wouldn't have changed a thing during that time. But then the Army got rid of that MOS and I became an intel analyst, and moved to the intel section for an artillery battalion. While I loved my old job, being able to carry a really heavy rucksack, camouflage ground surveillance sensors, and live in a hide sight aren't really transferable skills in a civilian market. Being on battalion staff, all the work that came with that made me a very capable worker in white collar jobs, and gave me enough practical application to know what I needed to work on.

I left the Army in early 2009, when the economy was a mess. I was able to get a very good job as a contractor because I was able to show the employer I was able to showcase the skills I had learned working on staff. It also helped me get ready for college, and if all goes according to plan, I'll be graduating in December of next year.

Who knows what would have happened if I wasn't prepared to go out into the world after the Army.

96R? If so, my cousin was one back in the day and got rolled into 35F as well.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[btq96r]

96R? If so, my cousin was one back in the day and got rolled into 35F as well.

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

 

Yup 96R was a fun ride while it lasted. 

 

They wanted us to stay in MI, and branch pretty much let us reclassify into any MI MOS we had the ASVAB scores for regardless of the In/Out call below if memory serves.  For any other MOS, there had to be an opening which varied for NCO ranks.  A lot of us took intel analyst, some took UAV, and some of those who had a secondary MOS went back to that, especially if they got out and went into the guard or reserves.

[TMF]

I will offer my insight here based solely on experience and observation.  As some folks have said, each case is unique, so trying to pin it down to exactly one thing causing these suicides can't be done.  From what I've seen, the deployments and experienced combat were not the root cause, but rather exacerbated existing conditions or situations.  At the same time we consider this, we should also consider that adults at highest risk of suicide are males in the 18-24 age range; this is a significant chunk of our military.  Two big things, at least in my experience, which are unique to the military crowd are long deployments and combat experience. 

 

Long deployments create family problems.  I don't care to count how many guys in my unit were divorced.  With the exception of one, every person I knew who committed suicide was having, or recently had, serious marital problems or separation from their spouse.  So while the deployment may have not been the direct cause of the suicide, it certainly played a part. 

 

As for what is experienced in combat (and I mean actual combat, not deploying to a FOB and hearing a few indirect rounds hit now and then), it will change a person whether he realizes it or not.  I'm not saying that everyone who experiences combat has PTSD, but as with most other life experiences, it changes how you perceive the world around you.  Anyone who has children knows this very well.  You aren't the same person you were before your first child came into the world.  Someone who experiences close combat, especially on a regular basis for extended periods of time, will view the world in a different context than he did before.  The level of violence I brought on people, and how comfortable I became doing it, is not something that can be explained to someone who hasn't had a similar experience.  People look at you like you're either a psychopath or are a poster child for PTSD.  This is why people like me don't talk to people about it.  Not because I don't like bringing up those memories.  If you get me and my buddies together, we'll be recalling war stories in graphic detail after a couple of beers.  We just don't like talking about it with people who can't possibly relate to what we're talking about.  It makes us uncomfortable.

 

With that in mind, most of us view our own mortality very differently than a person who hasn't come close to being killed, or haven't seen their buddies killed, or haven't killed another human being before.  I can't describe it, other than to say that folks who have this experience are more comfortable with their own death than others may be.  Perhaps because we accepted it at one time or the other.  Speaking for myself, back in those days death was something that would happen or it wouldn't, but I accepted that I had no control over that and it made it easier to do the things I did without letting self-preservation instincts take over when it mattered.  I have to believe that changed my perception of things significantly.  Even now, when I consider my own mortality, my concern is for the future of my wife and children.  Without them, I don't believe I'd place such a high value on my life that I would be uncomfortable with the concept of dying.   

 

I wrote all that to help put it into context what might be going on with someone who commits suicide that has had these life experiences.  It isn't about PTSD, it's about the context in which they see life and death.  It's just different than regular people who don't ever experience that.  Kinda in the same way that a person is at higher risk for suicide if someone in their family commits suicide.  I think there were 5 members of Ernest Hemingway's family that killed themselves after he did?  Something like that.  I think it's much the same way for people who are in a unique situation where they have had to digest the full spectrum of death; accepting their own, coping with the loss of many of their buddies, and killing other people.

 

Just last week I spent a few hours talking with an old friend who's wife left him recently, and took their kids with her.  We have known each other since just after 9/11, and spent a deal of time in training together just prior to invading Iraq.  He's always been a bad drunk, and more impulsive to say things than most.  After a few deployments between Iraq in Afghanistan, I could see the changes in him.  He would likely be diagnosed with PTSD somewhere on a spectrum, if such a thing existed.  But talking to him last week, those aren't the issues that I need to talk him down from.  It's the loss of what is most important in life which has him on the ledge.  Now I don't know if he's really considered taking his life, but where he is emotionally I have to believe the thought has crossed his mind, and with his experiences similar to mine, I'd have to believe that death isn't as scary to him as it is to most people.  This is the recipe right here.

 

The problem I have with the media and the Army's lip service to suicide, is they keep wanting to put a hashtag on it and wrap it up with the PTSD bow.  That's not what is happening, at least not from what I've observed.  When they do this, they are tacking on the cause to a problem which has little or nothing to do with the problem, which makes it difficult to address the real reason why servicemembers and veterans are killing themselves and develop an effective solution. 

 

What it keeps coming back to is we have to do our best to look out for each other.  When you know your buddy is going through some hard times, reach out and let him talk.  Just taking the cork off the bottle will help.  It's uncomfortable to say all the things you're supposed to say.  I heard that with a potentially suicidal person you should just come right out and ask if they're thinking about killing themselves.  I don't know if that's correct, but I found that I couldn't even say that the other night to him.  Hopefully he's doing better now than he was before, and if he isn't, I hope to have the courage to ask the things that need to be asked.

Edited October 28, 2015 by TMF

[MacGyver]

To echo Gordon above, I'll buy a cup of coffee for any member of this community anywhere in this state.  Anytime.

 

To the extent that someone in our small community is struggling with life and finds that death doesn't look too bad, let one of us know.  We may not be able to walk in your shoes, but we can show you that there are people that care about the struggle.

[Sam1]

+1 to Gordon for offering help.  If you all know any vets around Nashville that gets to the point you/they need professional help, I work at the hospital and will donate any amount of personal time it takes to help you/them navigate the system or get in touch with someone that can help.  615-266-3030

 

Don't think of it as infringing, the best part of my day is going between offices and helping out a fellow vet get somewhere or just talk to them for a few minutes if they look like they need help with something. And if any of you all are up there for an appointment, give me a ring, am always up for having lunch with people.

[bersaguy]

I will share one story from Nam that I have not talked about till right now. My team had just checked in a fire base for a few days R&R and being in jungle for a solid month on recon. New recruits were also arriving at the same time. As they climbed out of the Huey's you could see it in there eyes. They were scared to death. Charlie also knew the new recruits were arriving and many times they would test the fire base and new recruits. That night they hit with mortars and then they charged of the wires with ladders. Everyone was scrambling to get under ground and get ready to fight. A man who will remain nameless jumped into a half covered trench only to see a new recruit that arrived that day trying to get his rifle muzzle in his mouth. The man shouted at him to get that damn gun out of his face and pointed to the wire. The damn enemy is out there and the man began firing at the enemy approaching the wire and the new recruit threw his gun down and buried his head in his arms. As things began to calm down some the man looked at the kid and said just what were you thinking and the boys rely was "I am going home"! The man looked at the boys face and said yea you are and he shot the kid in the foot. Then hollered for a medic and by then things had calmed down except for this boys screaming till the medic arrived.

    The medic looked at the wound and ask how he got shot in the foot while in a trench and before the kid could say anything the man said accidental discharge during a reload while under fire. As the man started to walk away he turned and said say hi to your family for me. He just looked the the man as he walked away. Just before the kid was loaded on the Medi-vac to go home the man walked passed his stretcher and the young man said "thanks and the man just looked at him and said "for what?" and walked away.

 

 

   If any of you think it was me it was not. It was shared with me by the man that did do it and I asked him why he did it? His reply was that kid was going home and if I didn't send him home he would just do what he was trying to do an hour later. He went home breathing and will probably have a limp. 

   Was the man wrong? I don't know and was not my place to judge him. I know he probably would have been court martial-ed for his actions if the young man would have ever mentioned what took place that night but evidently the young man knew what the man had really done and left it alone also. 

 

I have known about that action taken that night since October 1971 and this is the first time I have mentioned it since that night.  I probably would not have ever mentioned it had this thread not been started. As I look back the action taken that night may have saved a young man/Soldiers life. I don't know. Hell the kid may have still killed himself after returning home. I hope not but I guess none of us will ever really know..............I do have my own opinion on that action but that will remain sealed.  

[Randall53]

I want to thank all of you for the replies. I'm sorting things in my mind. I'm really worried about some things. Thanks again.

[wewoapsiak]

http://www.npr.org/2015/10/28/451146230/missed-treatment-soldiers-with-mental-health-issues-dismissed-for-misconduct

 

This might shed a little light on some issues going on.

[Dustbuster]

Mission 22 is a non profit that has folks on hand to help guys that need help w life issues I'll post the hotline # shortly
1800 273 8255 press 1 Edited October 30, 2015 by Dustbuster

[TMF]

 

 

For me, and I believe a lot of veterans, there was a feeling of just being alone and that will only get stronger if their family is not around either. I was used to being surrounded by other soldiers then one day I was alone. And it was that loneliness that really weighed me down. And I believe that is a huge reason for the suicides and other issues, like alcohol or drug abuse as well as some mental changes, only compound the feelings of loneliness. Combine that with the drinking culture the military has and you end up with some of the problems we are seeing.

 

 

You know, this is a good point I left out.  I didn't experience this so bad myself, because my wife and kids always kept me busy, and I was able to land a job working with people who come from a similar background.  I can see this though, especially for younger guys who may not have a family unit to fall back on.  For most people in the military, the guys you work with day in, day out on your team/squad/platoon become a second family.  You can relate and talk about things that only family can, which isn't something people experience in the corporate world. 

 

There is a special kind of bonding that comes from that, and is amplified by experiences you share while in combat.  When you get out, all that goes away.  Even though I remain in contact with many of my buddies from when I was in, it just isn't the same as it was on a day to day basis.  I do miss that.  I can only imagine how tough that is for someone who has been living that life for 3-5 years, and then one day it's all gone, along with the sense of purpose you gain from working in that type of environment.  It's difficult to explain, but your sense of purpose gained from having a mission which is perceived to be so crucial, you're willing to commit all of yourself to it with out giving thought otherwise.  In the corporate world, it's difficult to draw that sense of purpose, other than the desire to maintain your job so you can feed your family.  I miss that too.

 

I'm lucky to have a family that values me as much as I value them.  A dominating reason why I left was because I felt I couldn't exist in both worlds and commit myself to the appropriate level for both, which is a disservice to the unit and my family.  It just came down to priorities.  I do miss it, and I think it would be hard for anyone who didn't have something of equal or greater importance to commit to upon separating. 

Edited October 30, 2015 by TMF