Blackhorn 209 vs Pyrodex

[Omega]

So went to the range to sight in my BP rifle yesterday and tried Blackhorn 209. I started off by popping off 2 or 3 primers then shot my first few rounds using pyrodex pellets, 100 grains, to make sure I was on target. Then switched to Blackhorn, I read that it was a bit more powerful so I decided to go with 90 grains. Due to using a new measure, it turned out to be more like 85. So first shot and every shot there after deformed the primer. It didn't seem to be any more pressure according to the felt recoil but some of the primers had the primer cups come out of the primer body. Has anyone using Blackhorn ever experience this?

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[10-Ring]

I've been battling whether or not to switch to Blackhorn for a while.  Obviously cost is the main consideration, other than your issue with the primers how did you like it?

[Omega]

I've been battling whether or not to switch to Blackhorn for a while.  Obviously cost is the main consideration, other than your issue with the primers how did you like it?

Well, effectiveness wise it was really no different than the pyrodex pellets.  But it was 100 grains vs 85, and it did seem to be cleaner when I ran a patch through it at the range.  I never really had an issue on how dirty the barrel was with pyrodex, and the pellets are convenient as heck.  I know you can load pre-measured charges from a variety of tubes but they are just not as easy to hunt with.  I went from powdered pyrodex to pellets very early on, as a matter of fact I am still on my first lb of pyrodex but my second box of pellets.  Maybe when they make blackhorn pellets I will get more enthused about it, but for me anyway its not worth the extra expense

 

Oh, and one of my shots required two primers.  And one other had a longer lock time, very noticeable difference between that one and other blackhorn shots but I can't blame the blackhorn since it was only two out of about 10.  I am going to use the rest of the blackhorn to give it a good trial run but if it does not show a better outing than at the range it will probably be my last lb I get.

[GKar]

Haven't seen this with Nobel 686 primers in a CVA Accura using either 100 or 110gr BH...been thorough most of a bottle of BH so far.  In that gun, with those loads behind either a 250gr SplitFire MZ or Horanady SSt saboted bullet, BH definitely burns cleaner than Pyrodex, Triple 7 or IMR White Hots - up to 5-6 rounds without even a dry patch.  (NOTE: the CVA uses a different breech plug for BH than for other powders, but the differences seem to be forward of the primer - wouldn't seem to account for the primer issues you've seen.

 

I've been using lab grade screw-top plastic tubes for storing/feeding pre-measured loads of BH - seals are rather moisture-proof, yet easily unscrewed with one hand.  Got a bunch of em off eBay a couple of years ago: a 5mL nominal capacity tube will hold right at 100gr, I believe.

[Omega]

Haven't seen this with Nobel 686 primers in a CVA Accura using either 100 or 110gr BH...been thorough most of a bottle of BH so far.  In that gun, with those loads behind either a 250gr SplitFire MZ or Horanady SSt saboted bullet, BH definitely burns cleaner than Pyrodex, Triple 7 or IMR White Hots - up to 5-6 rounds without even a dry patch.  (NOTE: the CVA uses a different breech plug for BH than for other powders, but the differences seem to be forward of the primer - wouldn't seem to account for the primer issues you've seen.
 
I've been using lab grade screw-top plastic tubes for storing/feeding pre-measured loads of BH - seals are rather moisture-proof, yet easily unscrewed with one hand.  Got a bunch of em off eBay a couple of years ago: a 5mL nominal capacity tube will hold right at 100gr, I believe.

From what I can see, it crushed the sides of the primer like a soda can, pushing out the primer cup. My WAG is that the BH produced enough suction with the bullet, like a plunger on a syringe, that it crushed the body and when the seal broke on the primer some gas escaped and blackened the whole primer.

My rifle is a T/C black diamond, I don't know of a different breach plug for this one when using BH. I will look into it, this guy has the same rifle; good pic of the breach plug and 209 adapter: http://s194.photobucket.com/user/10pointer2002/media/100_3363.jpg.html

As for hunting with it, I'm going to pickup some Blackhorn tubes, they are around $6 for a six pack. They are clear and graduated so you can use as a measure and easily see the charge. In this link they are a little more but better pic.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/863732/blackhorn-209-muzzleloading-powder-tubes-pack-of-6

[Sunfish]

Your bolt must be the kind that slides forward when the trigger is pulled. The only way I see for it to do that to the primer is to back up when fired. I do know that the hole for 209 is smaller than say for musket caps. The spring that propels the bolt or pin might be weak? 

[Bad_Bowtie]

I've been shooting a smokeless muzzloader since 2008, but I've got an old Knight Wolverine that I use as a backup/loaner gun. I've been thinking about switching it to Blackhorn. All the reviews I've seen seem to say it's a lot cleaner than 777/Pyrodex. Look forward to hearing yalls experiences also. Edited October 27, 2015 by Bad_Bowtie

[GKar]

Supposedly, the CVA BH 209 breech plug simply has a larger/deeper flash hole than that of the regular breech plug to better facilitate ignition of loose powder.  Their Accura is an break-open inline, with an easily removed QXR breechplug.

[Omega]

Your bolt must be the kind that slides forward when the trigger is pulled. The only way I see for it to do that to the primer is to back up when fired. I do know that the hole for 209 is smaller than say for musket caps. The spring that propels the bolt or pin might be weak? 

That is a distinct possibility, the primer in the picture is just an example.  The one that originally caught my attention had the primer cup actually come out of the body, it was the striker inside that I first seen and at first thought it was a piece of the T/C.  The thing is, is there that much pressure difference between the two powders?  Or is it that one is powder and the other pellets that is allowing backpressure?  I'll have to fire a few with powdered pyrodex to see if it does the same thing.  I'll give my bolt a look see but it will be difficult to know if the spring is weak or not just by looking at it.  At any rate, it doesn't shoot out or anything, it stays contained in the cupped face of the bolt.

 

I've been shooting a smokeless muzzloader since 2008, but I've got an old Knight Wolverine that I use as a backup/loaner gun. I've been thinking about switching it to Blackhorn. All the reviews I've seen seem to say it's a lot cleaner than 777/Pyrodex.

It is cleaner, running a patch down the barrel with both I could tell there was a difference even with just a couple of each shot.  The thing is when hunting I usually only fire it once or twice before I clean it so having it be a little cleaner isn't much of a deal to me.  If I was at the range, shooting multiple times it would be better since you wouldn't have to swab it as often. And according to their page its not as caustic as BP or pyrodex and they recommend using oil based solvents vs standard water-based solvents so that is a plus if you cant clean it immediately after a hunt or range.  They also say that it does not absorb as much water as other powders so there is that, but if you start with a fresh load before any hunt you should be ok. 

 

And the other thing about the expensive part, it is higher priced than pyrodex; using Midsouth prices; its on sale for $29.95 for a 10oz can which makes it $3.00 an oz, Pyrodex is $14.74 for a 1lb can or $0.92 an oz and the Pyrodex pellets are $21.92 for 11 oz box or $1.90 an oz.  So I guess if you don't mind paying 2 to 3 times as much per shot for the cleanliness and other pluses I mentioned then its ok.  For me, if its much more accurate or has other qualities I am not seeing at the moment then maybe it may be worth it but right now I am not completely sold on it though if I only use it for hunting I will be using these 10 oz for some time to come.

[300winmag]

Blackhorn 209 is expensive, but it is a lot easier to clean up than Triple 7.  You can just use regular gun solvent to clean it up.  I don't mind that Blackhorn 209 is only a loose powder because I like to weigh the charges on a powder scale.  I have heard that you can shoot Blackhorn 209 and wait several days to clean, but I try to still clean the same day.  If Blackhorn 209 was not available, I would probably have looked into buying a smokeless muzzleloader like the discontinued Savage or one of those smokeless barrel conversions on a Remington or Savage action.  You do need a blackhorn specific breach plug if you are using a CVA rifle.  The plug that comes with the gun will not work as well as a blackhorn plug and you risk misfires.  Also, western powders advises people to use standard shotgun Federal or CCI Magnum primers.  Muzzleloader 209 primers you use with Triple 7 or Pyrodex are not hot enough.