NFA Trusts

[Guest abailey362]

yeah but the extra weeks with the sbr might be worth the 200 bux.....since h couldn't take possession and assemble and play with saif new toy

[ukerduker]

yeah but the extra weeks with the sbr might be worth the 200 bux.....since h couldn't take possession and assemble and play with saif new toy

Honestly, I don't want to interfere with the SBR processing. I submitted my paperwork prior to the election and I can only assume that the list of NFA items being processed has jumped significantly since NOV 4th. I don't want to go to the end of that line.

[Reservoir Dog]

For instance, I keep the NFA item locked up in my safe. My brother wants to barrow my SBR. Can I legally "loan" it to him since he is named on the trust as a beneficiary?

Is your brother going to be named as a beneficiary or as a trustee?

Maybe Joe can clarify this, but I believe that only a person listed as a trustee can have possession of the NFA item. A beneficiary (like any other non-trustee) can only use the NFA item when a trustee is present.

I might be wrong.

[ukerduker]

Is your brother going to be named as a beneficiary or as a trustee?

Maybe Joe can clarify this, but I believe that only a person listed as a trustee can have possession of the NFA item. A beneficiary (like any other non-trustee) can only use the NFA item when a trustee is present.

I might be wrong.

As I went through the program, it only allowed me to establish my wife and me as the trustees. So, I named my son and brother each as a beneficiary. I didn't look for any options within the software. I simply did steps A thru Z.

EDIT: The way the software is written, only me or my wife and me can be the Trustees for a Revocable Living Trust. All other names added to the trust will be beneficiaries. As I read the explanations, the beneficiaries can only possess the item(s) in the trust in the event that me or wife & me die. Now I understand this is NOT a lawyer and may not be the final answer to this issue.

Edited November 24, 2008 by ukerduker
me gots smarter :)

[Guest Verbal Kint]

As I went through the program, it only allowed me to establish my wife and me as the trustees. So, I named my son and brother each as a beneficiary. I didn't look for any options within the software. I simply did steps A thru Z.

EDIT: The way the software is written, only me or my wife and me can be the Trustees for a Revocable Living Trust. All other names added to the trust will be beneficiaries. As I read the explanations, the beneficiaries can only possess the item(s) in the trust in the event that me or wife & me die. Now I understand this is NOT a lawyer and may not be the final answer to this issue.

What you're saying is correct... however... you can then export the document and edit it how you see fit. Once inside MS Word, you can add more trustees and tweak the document to fit your needs. That's what several of us did, even if simply adjusting the name of the Trust. The document is pretty flexible, within reason.

[Reservoir Dog]

Yeah, that is my understanding, as well.

I was just responding to your question about a beneficiary (your brother) borrowing the NFA item. I don't believe a beneficiary can just "borrow" the item. A trustee would have to be with the NFA item.

That is the way I understand it.

[ukerduker]

What you're saying is correct... however... you can then export the document and edit it how you see fit. Once inside MS Word, you can add more trustees and tweak the document to fit your needs. That's what several of us did, even if simply adjusting the name of the Trust. The document is pretty flexible, within reason.

AH HAH!! So that's the trick.!?!?

If you add several people to the Trust as Trustees, do you bother adding anyone as a beneficiary? I guess in my case, I can add my brother to the list of Trustees and make my son (a minor) a beneficiary with an assigned custodian.

If I do make these changes, I am assuming PART 1 of the Trust will reflect all the Trustee's names? And if this is true, what do I make the "name" of the Trust to enter on to the Form 4? ("Joe, Jakie, Johnny, Eddie and Jimmy's NFA Revocable Living Trust"?)

I really do need to become more tech savy and trade in my Speak & Spell.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Yep... add your brother if you want, and keep your son (the minor) as a beneficiary with appointed guardians. Then follow the pattern of the document and add the appropriate info where needed. You got it.

---

I had my full Trust name as "Yancy NFA Revocable Living Trust". Receiver is engraved with a shorter "Yancy NFA Trust, <city>, <state>".

On the Form 1, section 3B, Applicant's Name and Address: "Yancy NFA Revocable Living Trust" (full thing again, instead of my name) and then my mailing address under it.

On the Form 1, section H, Additional Description: I stated the shorter / actually engraved : "Yancy NFA Trust, <city>, <state>"

Hope that helps answer your question.

While I didn't submit any of my paperwork (wound up foregoing the SBR project), I followed my brother's suit and filled out all the info as he did on his Form 1. His was approved with no issues at all.

[Guest VolGrad]

True - beneficiaries can't possess without a trustee being present. My trust originally was written with my spouse only being a beneficiary (simple mistake). Luckily, I caught it before having it notarized. I changed her to be a trustee (plus a few other folks) -and- she is the sole beneficiary.

[ukerduker]

I believe I've had all my questions answered, but one. If I plan on having my brother as a trustee, he will need to sign the trust in front of a notary. Can he do this in PA, then send me the signed and notorized trust, where my wife and I will sign in front of a TN notary? Or do all of us have to be in front of the same notary?

If this becomes too difficult, I will just add my brother as a beneficiary.

[Guest VolGrad]

Trustees do not need to sign the trust docs. Only the Granter (is that the correct term?) must sign.

Edited November 25, 2008 by VolGrad

[ukerduker]

Trustees do not need to sign the trust docs. Only the Grantor (is that the correct term?) must sign.

This is getting too legal for me. I have read through my trust and it does distinquish between a Grantor and a Trustee. With this said, there are several areas that need to be updated to add a third person as a Trustee. I don't want to invalidate the trust becasue I miss a add a name or miss adding a name. Then comes the issue of signatures. I guess my brother will have to live with being a Successor Trustee, which only allows him to possess and use my NFA items when a trustee is present.

[Guest VolGrad]

I might be off but as I understand it ...

The Granter (me) created a trust to include the following;

Trustees (primary, secondary, etc) = me, spouse, two BILs.

The sole beneficiary is my spouse.

Any and all of the trustees are equal in their entitlement/legal rights to possess the NFA items placed in the trust regardless of whether they are named primary, secondary, etc.

I really don't know what happens to trigger the beneficiary. However, I would assume it would mean all trustees are "gone/dead".

Also, keep in mind you you can add/delete/modify trustees any time after the trust is created. I think it is a pretty simple process too since the trust is not really "registered" any where. Some folks do register them with the county/state but it isn't necessary.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Guest VolGrad]

The only signature required was from me (the Granter), the person who transfered an item into the trust. In my case my trust (for now) only has in it a pocket knife. It was mine (the Granter) so I had to sign it over to the trust. The Trustees did not have to sign to take possession of it.

[midtennchip]

I've been reading this thread with some interest, but I have to tell you, I am concerned with the use of Quicken or any other software to create a trust. Most of the discussion in this thread relates to who can possess and/or use the weapon. However, a trust has a very specific purpose for the transfer of the weapon. The problems arise when the trustee (particularly you if there are multiple trustees) dies. Does the trust adequately instruct the new trustee how to handle the trust (and the weapon)? What happens if a trustee becomes ineligible to possess the weapon? Does the trust have specific provisions to remove a trustee if the trustee becomes ineligible?

There are many issues. I admit I am not familiar with the trust documents that Quicken or other software programs produce. But, if they are like the wills I see from software, you could have some major problems.

Yes, as many of you know, I am an attorney. However, I do not currently draft NFA trusts (although I will start doing so at some point in the future), so I am not looking for business on this issue. What I am suggesting is that you do a LOT of research on this before relying on a do-it-yourself NFA trust. For your reading pleasure (HA HA ), I would offer the following link as a STARTING POINT. Mr. Howell and Mr. Goldman are well-known NFA trust attorneys.

http://www.2aforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23689&Main=1483

[ukerduker]

I've been reading this thread with some interest, but I have to tell you, I am concerned with the use of Quicken or any other software to create a trust. Most of the discussion in this thread relates to who can possess and/or use the weapon. However, a trust has a very specific purpose for the transfer of the weapon. The problems arise when the trustee (particularly you if there are multiple trustees) dies. Does the trust adequately instruct the new trustee how to handle the trust (and the weapon)? What happens if a trustee becomes ineligible to possess the weapon? Does the trust have specific provisions to remove a trustee if the trustee becomes ineligible?

There are many issues. I admit I am not familiar with the trust documents that Quicken or other software programs produce. But, if they are like the wills I see from software, you could have some major problems.

Yes, as many of you know, I am an attorney. However, I do not currently draft NFA trusts (although I will start doing so at some point in the future), so I am not looking for business on this issue. What I am suggesting is that you do a LOT of research on this before relying on a do-it-yourself NFA trust. For your reading pleasure (HA HA ), I would offer the following link as a STARTING POINT. Mr. Howell and Mr. Goldman are well-known NFA trust attorneys.

http://www.2aforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23689&Main=1483

I am with you when you state this the Quicken Trust may not be the best solution. I will not have any issues going this route. It clearly states who gets what in the event that one of the trustees dies. It also includes a section on clearing up disputes or issues with a designated individual. It also addresses the resigning of a trustee, but does not touch on removing a trustee. I would assume that the Grantor can remove a trustee whenever necessary. I do admit, I would would consult an attorney if this event were necessary. For now I am keep things simple.

My concern was with adding an additional person as a trustee, beyond my wife and me. I will forego this because the third party is out of state. I may return to this at a later date, since I do not have to register this trust in my state.

[midtennchip]

I am with you when you state this the Quicken Trust may not be the best solution. I will not have any issues going this route. It clearly states who gets what in the event that one of the trustees dies. It also includes a section on clearing up disputes or issues with a designated individual. It also addresses the resigning of a trustee, but does not touch on removing a trustee. I would assume that the Grantor can remove a trustee whenever necessary. I do admit, I would would consult an attorney if this event were necessary. For now I am keep things simple.

My concern was with adding an additional person as a trustee, beyond my wife and me. I will forego this because the third party is out of state. I may return to this at a later date, since I do not have to register this trust in my state.

I would not make that assumption. Again, I haven't looked at this particular trust (it very well may be a good one), but if the trust does not specifically state that the grantor has a right to remove a trustee without dissolving the trust, my guess would be that the grantor would have the revoke the trust and start over. If I'm not mistaken, that would pose some transfer issues (i.e., have to transfer the weapon back to the grantor and then back into the new trust).

What I would suggest is writing in a provision that states a trustee is automatically removed if such trustee becomes ineligible to legally possess the weapon. It seems to me that, since a trustee is deemed to have possession of the assets of the trust (in this case, the weapon), there is a strong argument that a trustee that becomes ineligible to legally possess the weapon has possession of the weapon until the trustee resigns or is removed (even if he doesn't have physical possession). I don't know if a DA or the ATF would make that argument, but I sure wouldn't want to find out.

One other issue. In your original post, you asked how many beneficiaries you can have for the trust. Keep in mind that, if you (the grantor) die, the trust becomes irrevocable. The trust should specify EXACTLY how the assets (i.e., the weapon or weapons) will pass to the beneficiaries. For example, if the trust simply says the beneficiaries (if there's more than one) get the assets of the trust and there is only one item, what happens? Maybe this program handles that (hopefully), but you cannot divide the single item among multiple beneficiaries. In all likelihood, the weapon would have to be sold.

Edited November 27, 2008 by midtennchip

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Quicken prepares a Declaration of Trust, Assignment of Properties, and Letter to Successor Trustees when you use the software to create your Trust.

The Declaration of Trust clearly spells out all legalities and duties within the Trust, for all parties and the document itself. The letter also expands upon this. The Trust also does specify who and how the property will be passed onto the beneficiaries.

Simply put, using the software is good to go.

Your recommendation of still seeking legal counsel is a sound one, as with any legal issue. I even had my lawyer look mine over to see if it was adequate, and he was actually impressed with the result and said that it was more than adequate.

However, you also have to keep in mind that Quicken isn't a fly-by-night company, and the fact that people have been using this software for years for this exact purpose (not taking into account the millions of other people that have probably used it for other non-NFA property). I'm pretty sure they had a legal panel review the architecture of their documents and terminology before it ever hit the public.

Like I said... your recommendation to thoroughly review the document, and seek additional legal counsel if you see fit, is a sound one. But you may turn people off of using the program (which is one of the best things going out there, for people wanting to get an NFA item via legal Trust) with the skepticism.

I can provide you with a copy of the software if you would like to create a document and then analyze it. Then you could specifically point out any issues you feel are "gray areas". I would just hate to see someone turned off from using this venue... when an authority questions whether it's a good decision or not, having never looked at it.

[midtennchip]

Verbal, my intent is only to point out areas for people to review before relying on one of these documents. If you (and anyone looking to use it) are comfortable with the trust created by Quicken, please do not let my concerns stop you, particularly after your lawyer has given it the OK. However, I would much rather see someone not use a trust at all than to step one up improperly. That may not be a popular opinion here (I'm a lawyer, I'm use to people not likely my opinion by now ), but an improperly drafted NFA trust could have severe consequences.

Although I haven't reviewed Quicken with respect to an NFA trust, I have seen numerous issues with it for general wills. Quicken has published versions that were out-of-date for particular states at the time of publishing. I have also seen several Quicken wills that were totally screwed up, including one in my own family! Sometimes that is the fault of the person using Quicken, but I've heard way too many issues from fellow attorneys to not have some concerns.

I understand the desire to cut down the cost on these. I am NOT saying don't use them. What I am saying is educate yourself on the issues (Google "NFA trust quicken" to find some of the issues). I think a number of the issues can be overcome, but you just have to know what to look for.

The link below outlines some of the issues with Quicken. Yes, the author is interested in more business for himself, but there are SOME valid issues raised in his article.

http://www.floridaestateplanninglawyerblog.com/2008/10/using_quicken_to_prepare_a_tru.html

[Guest fdx28]

I've got a handful of NFA items that are registered to me but I want to put them into a family trust. I know I've got to get new tax stamps and Form 4's but do I have to go thru a SOT or C3 dealer to do the paperwork/transfer?

Thanks

[Guest bwhited]

Nope. You can do it all yourself.... No need for a SOT at all. Just sucks that you will have to pay an additional $200 per stamp.

[Guest fdx28]

Thanks for the info.

[quesogrande]

Can you change names at will on trusts?

[quesogrande]

Can you change names at will on NFA trusts?

[TGO David]

If it is a revocable living trust, yes.