NFA Trusts

[Guest Tuffcop]

Hello all,

New to the forum and have an NFA question. Ill preface this by saying though i fell very comfortable with firearms law some of the civil issues associated with trusts boggle me. If I want to set up a trust and have my friend included as a trustee, can that be done? I have Quicken Willmaker but it does not allow me to add a trustee outside of my wife. I greatly appreciate the help.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

I used Quicken Willmaker Plus, as well, to create my document.

In Part 7, Trustees, Section A, Original Trustees of the Declaration of Trust, it should list both you and your wife as trustees. Specifically stating:

"... and ... are the trustees of this trust. Either alone may act for or represent the trust in any transaction."

---

When I had my finished document, I exported it to Word and then tweaked it how I saw fit. But the program should automatically create the above line on it's own. You can edit and add your friend in there as well, after you export it.

[Guest Tuffcop]

Cool, so I can add him as a trustee I just have to add it through word?

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Cool, so I can add him as a trustee I just have to add it through word?

Yep, I believe so. The program, as you saw, only lets you add the two primaries... but you can edit it after you export it. Some Trusts only have a single trustee (option when you could choose single, married) while some have a panel or board of trustees. Just depends on the Trust and how it's built.

I'm of course not a lawyer, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

When I asked my attorney about the specifics, and whether or not I had to register my Trust in my state (KY), he pretty much said what I told you above.

Edited July 10, 2008 by Verbal Kint

[towerclimber37]

now that your question is answered, welcome to the forum! thanks for doing your job!

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

ya welcome to the forum

[Guest tngunman]

Hire a trust attorney and set the trust up for everything you own. Property, guns, retirement, hell, even your shoes. If you have children under 18 you need a real trust. Ease of NFA will be a side benefit

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Although seeking an attorney is always sound advice, it's definitely not needed for a Legal Trust for an NFA item.

You can easily do that in the WillMaker program, on your own. I see what you're saying in regards to setting up a trust for all of your belongings (something important and worth doing, for sure), but that doesn't make too much sense if you're primarily using it for the SBR weapon... especially when you can have more than one Trust.

That's why I specifically created mine as "John Doe's NFA Trust" and engraved the lower receiver with the same info. The only items in that legal document are the lower receivers. Legal cost = $0.00

My other worldly possessions will go in a separate Trust, which will be created by my attorney and I.

[ukerduker]

Today, I purchased a YHM suppressor for my SBR AR. I plan to go with a trust for this NFA item, but I have a few questions.

Is there an advantage to establishing a trust in both (me and my spouses) names?

Is there a limit to the beneficiaries that can be named within the trust? For now I plan to include my son and brother (and any other good friends;))

I submited the required documents/prints/LEO signature for my SBR. Can I add my SBR to my trust when my suppressor is approved? Does the ATF have to be notified if my SBR is added to the trust?

I bought the Quicken Willmaker 2009 and I'm using http://www.86th.org/?id=nfa-trust#Form5330.20-3 as a guide. There are some subtle changes, but is very to navigate and understand.

[Reservoir Dog]

The advantage of having both you and your wife as trustees is that both of you can have possession of the NFA items. I am not sure about the number of beneficiaries you can have. Also, I believe only trustees can possess the NFA items.

Be advised that moving your previously registered SBR into your trust will require filing another Form 4 and paying another $200.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Reservoir Dog

[Guest VolGrad]

The advantage of having both you and your wife as trustees is that both of you can have possession of the NFA items. I am not sure about the number of beneficiaries you can have. Also, I believe only trustees can possess the NFA items.

Be advised that moving your previously registered SBR into your trust will require filing another Form 4 and paying another $200.

Reservoir Dog has it right from my understanding.

I just did a trust for my first can and it was super duper easy. I added my wife and two brother-in-laws as trustees with my wife as the sole beneficiary. As I understand it any of these folks can possess the NFA trust item legally -and- I believe if I should pass could take possession with no or minimal paperwork and fees.

Leave the SBR as it and don't worry about adding it to the trust unless you really really want the trustees to be able to possess the SBR also. If it is worth $200 then you can add it, if not let it go. Just add future NFA items to the trust from the git go.

[Guest adavid02]

Hey VolGrad!

[ukerduker]

Reservoir Dog has it right from my understanding.

I just did a trust for my first can and it was super duper easy. I added my wife and two brother-in-laws as trustees with my wife as the sole beneficiary. As I understand it any of these folks can possess the NFA trust item legally -and- I believe if I should pass could take possession with no or minimal paperwork and fees.

Leave the SBR as it and don't worry about adding it to the trust unless you really really want the trustees to be able to possess the SBR also. If it is worth $200 then you can add it, if not let it go. Just add future NFA items to the trust from the git go.

Thanks Reservior Dog/VolGrad! Sounds good. In the future I will add my SBR to the trust. I just didn't realize that it was another $200.

[Guest abailey362]

from what i understand, the law views you as an individual and you as a member of a trust as two separate people, so there has to be a form 4 involved since they consider it to be between two parties.

too bad there is so much gray area with the ATF.....but then again what would this sub-forum be for?

[ioerror001]

It's my understanding that with an NFA trust (I have one and this is how it was explained to me) That ONLY the Trustee can posess the item, and if there is more than 1 trustee ( ie: you and your wife) the atf will turn the application down. The advantage to a trust is no hasseling with fingerprint cards or cleo signoff. Also it will transfer tax free on a form 5 to whoever the benificiary is on your trust. You should also make sure whoever the successor trustee understands the importance of filing the form 5 with the ATF ... that's the number 1 issue with trusts and inheritance. People think that since it's in a trust it's automatic. It's not automatic, a form 5 has to be filed.

Also I'm sure you know this, but it's a seperate legal entity so you will need to file another form 4 when you transfer it from you to your trust, and it will be another 200.00 ... it's easier to fill out the original paperwork directly into the trust.

I'm no lawyer or expert, and I only have one item in mine for the time being, but this is how it was explained to me and what I believe to be the case. You can pm me if you have questions, and if I'm way off base you can flame the piss out of this, but I'm pretty sure this is how the trust thing works. I love it and all future NFA items will be in it.

[BimmerFreak]

It's my understanding that with an NFA trust (I have one and this is how it was explained to me) That ONLY the Trustee can posess the item, and if there is more than 1 trustee ( ie: you and your wife) the atf will turn the application down. The advantage to a trust is no hasseling with fingerprint cards or cleo signoff. Also it will transfer tax free on a form 5 to whoever the benificiary is on your trust. You should also make sure whoever the successor trustee understands the importance of filing the form 5 with the ATF ... that's the number 1 issue with trusts and inheritance. People think that since it's in a trust it's automatic. It's not automatic, a form 5 has to be filed.

Also I'm sure you know this, but it's a seperate legal entity so you will need to file another form 4 when you transfer it from you to your trust, and it will be another 200.00 ... it's easier to fill out the original paperwork directly into the trust.

I'm no lawyer or expert, and I only have one item in mine for the time being, but this is how it was explained to me and what I believe to be the case. You can pm me if you have questions, and if I'm way off base you can flame the piss out of this, but I'm pretty sure this is how the trust thing works. I love it and all future NFA items will be in it.

Who explained that to you?

[Reservoir Dog]

...and if there is more than 1 trustee ( ie: you and your wife) the atf will turn the application down.

Not true.

[ukerduker]

I just need facts in this case. Most of my questions have been answered. I just need to know one remaining thing. Can I add my son (a minor) to the trust as a beneficiary? This is the only part of the software I do not fully understand. I know I have to designate an adult to oversee this until he is 18, but how to enter this in the software isn't clear to me.

Also, if anyone wants to create a trust, I would offer up the use of my will maker program.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Can I add my son (a minor) to the trust as a beneficiary? This is the only part of the software I do not fully understand. I know I have to designate an adult to oversee this until he is 18, but how to enter this in the software isn't clear to me.

When going through the process, it should ask you if any of the beneficiaries are children. Then, you'll see a "Setup Child's Subtrust or Custodianship" section. Here, you'll code each child with S = Subtrust Setup or C = Custodianship... depending on how you are wanting to setup the Trust (choose "Custodianship") where you will then designate primary and alternate custodians. The software will do the rest, as usual, and plug in this info into the legal jargon.

FWIW, I have Quicken Willmaker Plus 2007 installed... and that's what I'm pulling the above info from. Not sure if that's the same version you're running, or not, but it shouldn't be that much different. I had both my son and my daughter (ages 6 yrs and 3 yrs) as future beneficiaries under my brother/wife as acting guardians... so adding your son should not be a problem at all.

Hope it helps.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Verbal Kint

[Guest abailey362]

I'd be glad to borrow the software once you are done or if it will let you make copies of the discs. I will be more than happy to pay shipping

[Guest VolGrad]

Not true.

Not only "not true" but "completely not true". That is one of the benefits of going the TRUST route ... so others in the TRUST can legally possess the NFA items too.

[ukerduker]

Not only "not true" but "completely not true". That is one of the benefits of going the TRUST route ... so others in the TRUST can legally possess the NFA items too.

Please expand on this. Does this "at any time" or only after the primary trustees die?

For instance, I keep the NFA item locked up in my safe. My brother wants to barrow my SBR. Can I legally "loan" it to him since he is named on the trust as a beneficiary?

[BimmerFreak]

Please expand on this. Does this "at any time" or only after the primary trustees die?

For instance, I keep the NFA item locked up in my safe. My brother wants to barrow my SBR. Can I legally "loan" it to him since he is named on the trust as a beneficiary?

You arent loaning him anything.

The physical assets (the SBR) are held in trust for ALL members.

Your brother has the same rights as you to all assets in the trust.

*The catch is that while he may have legal rights to said items, this does not override the laws of his State.

In other words; if he lives in Alabama, he wont be able to play with an SBR in his home state, since SBRs are not legal there.

[ukerduker]

I called the ATF office and asked a unique question.

The back story: I originally submitted my SBR Form 4 using the Local LEO sig, prints, and photos. I wanted to recind my SBR Form 4 submission and add the SBR to my (soon to be submitted) suppressor Trust.

Answer: I could do this, but it would delay my SBR approval an additional 6-10 weeks. I would basically void out the 30 days of processing that I have already gone through. The guy was very friendly and gave me straight answers. After our discussion, I came to the conclusion it would be easier to pay for an additonal $200 tax stamp to add the SBR to my Trust. This way in the meantime, I would have possession of my SBR with the approved tax stamp and I would be simply waiting on a transfer of the SBR to the Trust.

[Guest VolGrad]

Hero Gear already answered your question re: the trustees.

I personally would would have just rescinded the form 4 like you said and taken the 6-10 week delay to have the SBR added to your trust. That would have left you $200 toward another "new" toy, rather than double stamping the same one ... but then I am poor/cheap.