Gun "Registration"

[littlerivermike]

Sorry if this topic has been addressed in past posts....

 

1)  In TN, are our guns "registered"?

 

2)  If not "registered" per se, does the government (state or federal) have access to information on specific guns purchased in gun stores?

 

3)  if the answer to #2 is "yes" how far back is this information available to the government?

 

4)  what is the law (responsibility of seller or buyer) in documenting a private sale?

 

5)  if there is a law re #4 what is penalty for non-compliance?

 

6)  what about gifts of guns to adult children?

[cz75b]

1)No

 

2)just the 4473

 

3)20 years i think

 

4)there isnt any,just no proof person you are selling to is prevented from owning one legally

 

5)no idea

 

6)completely legal unless kid is mentally defective or otherwise prohibited

[littlerivermike]

Re #3, from Wikipedia.....

 

The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into a required "bound-book".^[3]A dealer must keep this on file at least 20 years, and is required to surrender the log to the ATF upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of, the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation. In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five-day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4.

 

If the older 4473 information is not in digital format, I wonder how "accessible" the data is.

[Preacher357]

From what I have been told, form 4473 is never in digital form (unless it is scanned by the FFL dealer to his own computer). Therefore, the form is only accessible to the government if they specifically ask the dealer for it. The government does not have a copy. The manufacturer fires each gun and records the ballistics before it is shipped to the dealer. If a bullet used in a crime is recovered, the ballistics is pulled from the manufacturer's ballistics test and the dealer that the gun was originally shipped to has to be able to provide form 4473 stating who the firearm was sold to. At that point, law enforcement can then go to that person to continue their investigation. That is my understanding of how it works at least.

[MP5_Rizzo]

My one and only firearm purchase at Wally World I completed the 4473 on the computer at their sporting goods counter, therefore a digital record.

[3600]

I hope not

[runco]

5 posts in 4 years, I believe OS has competition.

[xsubsailor]

 I had a co-worker that purchased a used Bersa 380 from a gun store.  For some reason, he wound up giving it to his sister which either lost it or had it stolen. It turned up at a crime scene somewhere in Alabama almost a year later and guess who the Feds came to see. (The last person who bought it legally)  Registration or not, they seem to be able to backtrack it.

[Oh Shoot]

 I had a co-worker that purchased a used Bersa 380 from a gun store.  For some reason, he wound up giving it to his sister which either lost it or had it stolen. It turned up at a crime scene somewhere in Alabama almost a year later and guess who the Feds came to see. (The last person who bought it legally)  Registration or not, they seem to be able to backtrack it.

 

That probably happened because first owner was contacted and he was the one who sold/traded it to the FFL where your co-worker got it.

 

- OS

Edited October 9, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[TrickyNicky]

That probably happened because first owner was contacted and he was the one who sold/traded it to the FFL where your co-worker got it.

 

- OS

 

 

But then how did they find the first owner? :)

[Oh Shoot]

But then how did they find the first owner? :)

 

Duck soup most of the time, at least for for anything sold since 1968.  Manufacturer and/or importer/distributor to first retail FFL.

 

Probably hardest part is finding the actual person if they've moved since. A SSN on the 4473 would make that part easy too.

 

- OS

Edited October 10, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[runco]

When I was in the biz 20 some odd years ago, many war stories of how guns were traced after the original owner sold/traded it away.   This was on the heels of Ruby Ridge etc. timeframe.  Rumors were rampant that many ATF agents were uncover buying used guns to cash in on opportunists.

 

Many people squeal quite easily when Feds contact you about a gun.  I sold it to so & so, he lives in (address), etc.  Hence my position on gun trading and gun sales on my personal level.

 

I know its perfectly legal to sell/trade a personal firearm, especially in Tennessee, thousands do it everyday, I personally don't want the scrutiny, just don't want the potential headache, don't want the liability risk on many fronts and etc. 

 

Who knows after I sale a gun that I purchased on a 4473 or not, where it may end up.  I don't want to explain or be asked, did I do my reasonable due diligence to confirm the buyer is legal, which may be as simple as can you legally buy this gun in Tennessee, or could be as simple show me your conceal carry permit, etc.  Because what if the buyer claimed he in fact informed me he was not legal (a lie)?  Just don't want the BS!

 

I am getting that way on personal vehicles that I work on too, like a brake job or something.  I know of someone close that flips cars on the side, and done a simple brake job on a car he had purchased.  The car was sold and was involved in serious accident a few days later, and the buyer claimed the brakes malfunctioned.  Maybe a bolt or bolts were not torqued properly.  Not sure of the details, there was a high risk of civil litigation, and potentially this simple brake job having to be revealed that shade tree guy performed.   People are just sue crazy anymore.

 

I do wonder, what are the cases out there that might end up in a civil court over a matter of a gun sale/trade that was legal transaction, but some private seller was sued in civil court say for being reckless in trading/selling a gun to a questionable character?

Edited October 10, 2015 by Runco

[zybysco]

But then how did they find the first owner? :)

They ask the manufacturer where they sold it. They then ask the vendor where they sold it. They then ask the gun store who they sold it to. The store has to produce the paperwork. Edited October 10, 2015 by zybysco

[littlerivermike]

So, something like gunshow purchase for cash from individual is the best way to try to keep big brother from coming for the gun or 'asking' to buy it from me.

[Jonnin]

some of us paranoid types note that when you do your background check the firearm type and serial number are handed electronically to the government who could then, if they had some nefarious secret database, store the info.

[Garufa]

So, something like gunshow purchase for cash from individual is the best way to try to keep big brother from coming for the gun or 'asking' to buy it from me.

Why are you so concerned about it?

[Hershmeister]

Why are you so concerned about it?

Indeed

[monkeylizard]

I get all of mine from a guy off Trinity Lane. I think he gets scratch-n-dent ones right from the manufacturers because I've never seen a serial number on any of them and some look like maybe they were test models because they can be kind of rough. Probably salesman samples. His prices are AWESOME! He keeps his overhead low by not paying rent or building insurance and other stuff that suckers with brick-n-mortar stores have to pay. I text him and he tells me where to meet. Super convenient and he works around my schedule. I've never seen any real good collector pieces in his inventory, but if you need a Jennings, Bryco, or Rohm, he'll hook you up. No paper work either. He said that since it's a cash only business, we don't need a 4473. That sounds legit, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For any BATFE agents perusing TGO, that's called humor.

Edited October 11, 2015 by monkeylizard

[raildog]

I get all of mine from a guy off Trinity Lane. I think he gets scratch-n-dent ones right from the manufacturers because I've never seen a serial number on any of them and some look like maybe they were test models because they can be kind of rough. Probably salesman samples. His prices are AWESOME! He keeps his overhead low by not paying rent or building insurance and other stuff that suckers with brick-n-mortar stores have to pay. I text him and he tells me where to meet. Super convenient and he works around my schedule. I've never seen any real good collector pieces in his inventory, but if you need a Jennings, Bryco, or Rohm, he'll hook you up. No paper work either. He said that since it's a cash only business, we don't need a 4473. That sounds legit, right?
























For any BATFE agents perusing TGO, that's called humor.

Hey i did not know we used the same guy he had some new high points still in the box even came with the trigger lock but no keys how hard are they to get off i wonder

[littlerivermike]

Unfortunately, the past 7 years has taught me that just because I now believe a thing "impossible " to happen in the USA..........that doesn't mean it won't happen.

[DaveTN]

So, something like gunshow purchase for cash from individual is the best way to try to keep big brother from coming for the gun or 'asking' to buy it from me.

 
 

Unfortunately, the past 7 years has taught me that just because I now believe a thing "impossible " to happen in the USA..........that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Unless you find someone that will sell you a gun with no ID; there is a pretty good chance the gun could be traced to you.
Who do you think is going to come for it?

When I have someone that is adamant that they don’t want a record of the transaction I assume they are a convicted felon trying to buy a gun and we are done. I know that isn’t always the case; but I’m not real interested in selling to the "other" group either.

[Grunt67]

Tin foil or not, the Gov. is well known for not destroying records that were supposed to be so. I trust these fine folks about as far as I can throw my F-150.

[DaveTN]

Tin foil or not, the Gov. is well known for not destroying records that were supposed to be so. I trust these fine folks about as far as I can throw my F-150.

Is destroying the records required by law? If so, who is well known for not doing that?

You think that state or Federal officials that are required by law to destroy records would risk their jobs or jail by not doing what is required by law? Who are they and why would they do that? Edited October 11, 2015 by DaveTN

[Hershmeister]

Is destroying the records required by law? If so, who is well known for not doing that?

You think that state or Federal officials that are required by law to destroy records would risk their jobs or jail by not doing what is required by law? Who are they and why would they do that?

I hear Hillary might be interested in that record destruction job -

[1gewehr]

Two clarifications.
1. Manufacturers are only required to provide a fired case or bullet for a couple of states. It's not important since once you've fired the gun a bit and cleaned it, it will no longer match.
2. There is no Federal registration. Some states register firearms. Stupid law as registered firearms are very rarely used by the legal owner in crimes.