Warning Panter Sighting In Obion County

[Murgatroy]

I grew up deep in the Cherokee National Forest. I have never seen one, but I know plenty of trustworthy folks that claim to have. What I have heard, often enough to believe it myself, is the scream of a woman from deep in the woods that was always explained to me as that of a panther.

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[bvarnell]

I grew up deep in the Cherokee National Forest. I have never seen one, but I know plenty of trustworthy folks that claim to have. What I have heard, often enough to believe it myself, is the scream of a woman from deep in the woods that was always explained to me as that of a panther.

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I always thought that was a bobcat in heat.

[Oh Shoot]

Like all TN "panther" threads anywhere on the web, enough folks have "seen" them, that they ought to be found dead on the roads like possums. :)
 

 

 

.....
They ignore the basic biological concept of genetic drift.  With genetic drift, when a population is reduced in number, the effect of reproduction of individuals with a gene mutation is magnified.  For example, if a species had only three gray individuals and one black individual, and lightning randomly kills two of the gray ones, the chance of black color of the resulting offspring among the remaining population has dramatically improved.  Genetics is more complicated than that, but it illustrates the point.  In a large population, a rare gene can get diluted, but in a critically small population, a rare gene can explode in numbers.  It is a very easy way to explain large black cats in America since panthers were hunted to almost extinction.

 
 
Since no melanistic cougar has never been documented in history, from Alaska to South America, I'd call that a rather weak supposition.  Some animals simply never manifest a certain trait, the DNA strand for whatever reason just rejects it if it exists at all. So far (edit: among the big cats, to be clear) only leopards and jaguars are known to have black representatives, and apparently did not occur based on a limited number of breeding pairs. Interestingly, black leopards and jaguars actually do retain their spots, they're just not visible except under close examination.
 
And by the way, just for sake of pedantry :), there is really no such thing as a "panther", it is a wide colloquialism based on the genus name "panthera". The  jaguar, lion, tiger, and leopard are in that genus, but the cougar is not. And indeed there may well be some genetic possibilities based on the genetics of that genera that others simply can't manifest, any more than one of us could pop out of the womb as Neanderthal though many of us have recessive genes for that species.
 
- OS

Edited October 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Capbyrd]

I saw bigfoot once. 

[Oh Shoot]

I saw bigfoot once. 

 

Aw, that was probably just Elvis without a haircut since 1977.

 

- OS

[Superposed]

Saw one back in the late 1970's/early 1980's on the "Trace" road that runs down the middle of LBL. It was just south of the Kentucky line. Went across the road right in front of our vehicle. All three of us (wildlife/fisheries trained biologists) agreed it was definitely a mountain lion. Reported it to the then TVA Biologists on site and they said several mountain lion sightings had been reported.

Also a friend over in Cannon county came face to face with one out in high grass in their pasture. The cat went one way and he went the other. This was in a valley where there were several herds of sheep. The coyotes were a real problem. For the week that the cat was seen around the valley no coyotes were seen, heard or any sheep killed. As soon as the mountain lion was no longer seen, the coyotes returned.

 

Check out cougarnet.org/confirmations. No, this does not in any way concern older women. Confirmations of mountain lions all the way to the east coast. Read in the latest Dakota Country magazine that the core of three populations of mountain lions in the Black Hills of South Dakota have reached saturation and mountain lions are being forced out. Probably has been going on for years. One cougar was killed in 2008 in Chicago. Genetics proved it was a 1000 miles from its Black Hills home. Very interesting.

[dawgdoc]

Like all TN "panther" threads anywhere on the web, enough folks have "seen" them, that they ought to be found dead on the roads like possums. 

 

..........

 
Since no melanistic cougar has never been documented in history, from Alaska to South America, I'd call that a rather weak supposition.  
- OS

 

It wasn't in Tennessee, but I did see a dead one in south Georgia, and my parents saw another dead one many years later.  They were not black.

 

It is true that no one has killed or captured a large, wild black cat in America, but here is one old report:

 

 

"It was a huge, black panther, leaping through the air like Black Susan leaping on a mouse. It was many, many times bigger than Black Susan. It was so big that if it leaped on Grandpa it could kill him with its enormous, slashing claws and its long sharp teeth."

 

Granted, it is from Laura Ingalls Wilder's Little House in the Big Woods, which is based on her memories, but it shows that people have been talking about "black panthers" in America for a long time.

 

I concede that no one has proven a black gene exists in Puma concolor, but there are more than a few reports of large black cats that cannot easily be explained by mis-identification.  A forester, for example, should know the difference between a large black cat and a dog, bear, or otter: http://www.fieldandstream.com/pages/discussion-topic-was-forester-chased-black-panther

[Erik88]

God how I've missed these Panther threads. It's been far too long.

 

Mac never fails to deliver.

[Oh Shoot]

....

It is true that no one has killed or captured a large, wild black cat in America, but here is one old report....etc

 

Well, that's all certainly definitive. I'm surprised at you as a pro man of science, but understand the "wanting to believe".  Hence all the "accounts" of mothmen, chupacabras, hoop snakes, wendigos, jersey devils and  sasquatch, whatever.

 

Remarkable creatures all, "seen" by thousands, but not one credible documentation. Heck, a black cougar should be easy to find, as so many more claim to have seen one, any number over the years just here on our small sample of TGO alone! And proportional to the much greaer number of "sightings" of "normal" cougars, at least a few should be killed by cars here and there every year. Heck, three bears were killed by cars in 3 different locations in  E. TN in one day not long ago.

 

I'm assuming the pic under discussion is considered valid or TWRA wouldn't have published it, and it's the first credible documentation of a cougar of any kind in TN in maybe 100 years. Although at least we already know that type cougar actually exists. :)

 

Maybe they'll find and truly document a black cougar some day, I'd love it. Even if one could be bred in captivity.  But wouldn't bet a sou on it happening.

 

- OS

Edited October 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Ugly]

Sure is a lot of skepticism in the elusive black variety. I guess it's like in God we trust, all others pay cash.

The first one I saw was dark, it was at night and I had my headlights on him, I thought it was black.

2nd one tan, clear as day and HUGE!

As long as those working civil service say they don't exist, that's good enough for me :/

[runco]

What about a Florida Panther?

 

http://www.defenders.org/florida-panther/basic-facts

 

Basic Facts About Florida Panthers

The Florida panther is tawny brown on the back and pale gray underneath. It is one of 32 Puma concolor subspecies known by many names – puma, cougar, mountain lion, painter, catamount and panther.

© U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service

Florida panthers once prowled and flourished in woodlands and swamps throughout the Southeast. When European settlers arrived in the 1600s, the clear-cutting, building and other human activities that destroy, degrade and fragment habitat began, and the fear and misconceptions that led to panther persecution took root. Today, the panther is recognized as Florida’s official state animal but it is one the most endangered mammals on Earth.

Did You Know?

Proportionately, panthers have the largest hind legs of any cat, allowing them to leap up to 15 feet vertically and 45 feet horizontally.

Panthers are an umbrella species: Protecting them and the vast, unspoiled, wild territory each one needs to survive—an average of 200 square miles for a single male—protects many other plants and animals that live there. At the top of the food chain, these cats help keep feral hog numbers in check and deer, raccoon and other prey populations balanced and healthy.

Diet

Florida panthers primarily eat white-tailed deer, but they will also hunt feral hog, rabbit, raccoon, armadillo, birds and other animals.

Population

Estimated at 100-180 adults and subadults in south Florida, the only known breeding population.

Habitat & Range

Panthers historically ranged across the southeastern United States including Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, and parts of Tennessee and South Carolina. Now, the breeding population of Florida panthers is found only in the southern tip of Florida, south of the Caloosahatchee River. In recent years, young male panthers have traveled north into central and northeast Florida, and one even dispersed to west-central Georgia near the Alabama border. Females do not roam as widely and none have been documented outside of south Florida in decades. 

Behavior

Did You Know?

While the Florida panther is large, it is more closely related to small cats — like lynx and housecats — than to other big cats — like lions and tigers.

Panthers are habitat generalists, which means they use a variety of habitat types, including forests, prairies and swamps. They are solitary and territorial animals that travel hundreds of miles within their home ranges. Panthers are mostly active between dusk and dawn, resting during the heat of the day. Males have a home range on average of 200 square miles and females about 75 square miles.

Panthers are usually quiet, but they do communicate through vocalizations that have been described as chirps, peeps, whistles, purrs, moans, screams, growls, and hisses. Females signal their readiness to mate by yowling or caterwauling.

Reproduction

Rarely do all kittens survive. Kittens are born with dark spots that soon fade away as they become adults. They stay with their mother for up to two years.

Mating Season: Throughout the year, with a peak in winter/spring
Gestation: About 90 days
Litter Size: 1-4 kittens

[Oh Shoot]

 

What about a Florida Panther?

 

What about them? Small sub species of cougar. In Florida. Highly endangered. Not black. :)

 

- OS

[runco]

What about them? Small sub species of cougar. In Florida. Highly endangered. Not black. :)

 

- OS

I know by nature you doubt most everything, but are you sure? 

 

According to this group that has a website (so it must be true), they claim a genetic variation is the melanistic leopard (meaning an increased amount of black pigmentation in the fur).   http://www.cflar.org/?page_id=934

[MP5_Rizzo]

Go back and read post #28

[Oh Shoot]

I know by nature you doubt most everything, but are you sure? 

 

According to this group that has a website (so it must be true), they claim a genetic variation is the melanistic leopard (meaning an increased amount of black pigmentation in the fur).   http://www.cflar.org/?page_id=934

 

What's that got to do with cougars?

 

Go back and read post #28

 

Gasp. Radical idea to actually read thread. But thanks to Runco for the corroborating link regarding my previous post.  ;)

 

Course, I guess we could have a bunch of black leopards and jaguars running about in the state, eh?  :)

 

- OS

Edited October 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Omega]

What's that got to do with cougars?
 

 
Gasp. Radical idea to actually read thread. But thanks to Runco for the corroborating link regarding my previous post.  ;)
 
Course, I guess we could have a bunch of black leopards and jaguars running about in the state, eh?  :)
 
- OS

May not be too far from the truth, how many big cats are out there in private hands? When stationed at Ft Bragg, a lady that ran a local pet shop had a black panther as a pet. I'm pretty sure there are more like her that have them as pets. With all the storms, financial ups and downs is it so hard to believe that a few may be on the loose? Like this from a few years ago: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/wild-animals-escape-ohio-private-zoo-loose-14767621
I could also swear I seen a video from a lady that kept reporting a sighting of a large black cat and was not believed until she caught the cat at her back door on video. Funny thing is I can't find it now, but plenty of standard catamount videos from across the country.

[TMF]

 

Gasp. Radical idea to actually read thread. But thanks to Runco for the corroborating link regarding my previous post.  ;)

 

Course, I guess we could have a bunch of black leopards and jaguars running about in the state, eh?  :)

 

- OS

 

You must be a buzzkill sitting around a bonfire with rednecks telling tall tales.

[gjohnsoniv]

You must be a buzzkill sitting around a bonfire with rednecks telling tall tales.

You should sit at lunch with him sometime.

 

 

 

 

:D  Just messing with you Oh Shoot.

[dawgdoc]

I am a scientist, so I know that the burden is on the "believers" of eastern cougars to prove that they exist.  However, the idea that they exist has to start somewhere, which is where the numerous eyewitness reports come into play.  It does not help for the wildlife authorities to flat out disregard a report just because it doesn't fit their worldview.  It is a catch-22--you need extensive field research to prove they exist, yet the groups most capable of funding such research won't because they don't exist.

 

With each cougar sighting, there is essentially only one of three possibilities--it was a true large cat, it was mis-identified, or it was a hoax.  The fact that cougars lived in the areas where they are being seen makes it much more believable than Bigfoot or Mothman.  Interestingly, I thought that there were no documented black pumas, but they have been documented in South American (but not North America), and they were lighter color on their ventral surfaces.  So although exceedingly rare, the capability of dark coloration exists within the genome.

[Oh Shoot]

I am a scientist, so I know that the burden is on the "believers" of eastern cougars to prove that they exist

 

Not saying they don't ever exist east of the Mississippi, singles have been proven to be here and there since the '20s. We just saw apparently hard evidence of one in W. TN, and if so, the first truly confirmed one I know of in my lifetime in TN.  Maybe there have been one or two more, but I don't think so. But sure, there's always the chance of the rare wild errant traveler or escaped captive animal whose owner may have had it in violation of law and ain't gonna fess up.

 

But to assert they can exist anywhere in the neighborhood of the ballpark of the populations logically necessary to account for the number of people who have claimed to see them here in essentially every part of the state (or in most any eastern state really) is just fanciful -- there would have to be resident state-wide breeding populations, and also necessarily would have any number of them photographed and tranked and shot and run over and whatnot, simple as that, just as they are in the western states where there really are resident populations.

 

Hell, as funny extreme case, there's a now famous one living in Los Angles proper for the last three years, ole P-22.  He's seen and photographed regularly, monitored with a radio collar from a previous capture,  and since he's confined his predation so far to Griffith Park, the wildlife folks are leaving him alone, even though he roams as far as the Hollywood Sign, under a house in Los Feliz, and George Clooney's backyard. :)

 

.... Interestingly, I thought that there were no documented black pumas, but they have been documented in South American (but not North America), and they were lighter color on their ventral surfaces.  So although exceedingly rare, the capability of dark coloration exists within the genome.

 
I assume you are still talking cougar here? -- I have never seen such credible documentation at all .. references? Certainly this would be big news in the wildlife science world, not to mention price a zoo somewhere would pay for one I'm sure.
 
Genus puma would also include the jaguarundi; they can be black-ish, but they're certainly not in the "big cat" family -- Maine Coons are probably  bigger on the average (and can be black, too).
 
- OS

Edited October 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[runco]

You must be a buzzkill sitting around a bonfire with rednecks telling tall tales.

That there is coffee snorting out the nose and replace keyboard funny. 

[dawgdoc]

Loren Coleman has an extensive chapter about mystery cats in Mysterious America, but the most concise online reference that mentions the rare dark-colored Puma concolor is this: http://karlshuker.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-truth-about-black-pumas-separating.html

 

Interestingly enough, Shuker reaches the conclusion that the large black cats seen in the USA can't be Puma concolor precisely because the number of dark specimens killed is so rare.  He must be a glass half-empty type of guy.

 

To be honest Loren Coleman states in his book, "Still, these instances remain in question.  No scientifically verified melanistic Puma concolor of any subspecies is accepted."

 

This website (http://scotcats.online.fr/abc/catspecies/blackpumas.html) has a picture of a really dark specimen that I could see being called "black" if it was wet or at night.

 

So, previously I thought that no one had ever killed a black Puma concolor.  Now I think that people may have killed some specimens that have very dark coloration, but are not the jet-black, uniform color most people think of when you say "black panther."

 

 Obviously, until there is a body that can be necropsied and compare the DNA to known species, I cannot say there is definitive proof.  I have put my wife on notice that if we ever see another out of place, dead cougar, then we are strapping to the roof of the car, taking hair and blood specimens, keeping it in our garage covered in ice, and then I will contact one of my professors at UGA.  The government will get contacted last.  There may be a YouTube video involved.  Currently, the only other person who was with me when I saw my road-killed cougar was my mother, and she is slowly losing her mind to dementia.

[monkeylizard]

You guys are slipping. Late into Page 3 and we don't have a single picture of a black panther?

 

Fine... I'll do it.

 

 

[K191145]

Europe used to be full of Panthers back in the 30's to mid 40's, they were eventually hunted out of existence. 

 

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JMH42/media/Panther%20Tank_zpshhupctyq.jpg.html][/URL]

[monkeylizard]