Best Rifle Round for Range and long-range

[DaveTN]

So if I get a "long action", it's chamber, bolt, etc., are all configured for longer cartridges...
 
While I realize it may not cycle perfectly, or require manually inserting the cartridge into the breach (vs. using the clip), assuming the rim diameter is the same, I can shoot long OR short style cartridges for that calibre from a long-action rifle?
 
I _do_ think I've settled on the larger cartridge (e.g. .308 vs. .243, etc.), as I believe the .22's will handle the smaller-targets fine, this rifle is really centered around being able to reach out and touch something w/ a big stick. I also _think_ I'm shying away from the 300 WinMag, as it's expensive and a lot of boom... and I'm not using it to put food on the table (yet).
 
And it got me to thinking... most of the rounds I've been kicking around, have been short action. I see the 30-06 is the only "long" action round I'm considering (while I recognize the qualities of some of the other's one mentioned, I'm really trying to focus on cheap, readily available ammunition and parts here in the US, and don't want to get into anything the least bit exotic...) However there have been so many posts mentioning all the different numbers and sizes out there I'm quite confused!

What's the advantage to long vs. short? Aside from rifle weight (is there something inherently "better" about the Long Action rounds, e.g. they (are capable of) holding more powder/bigger charge? Larger/longer/heavier bullets in the Long Action vs. Short Action, that sorta thing)

Would a Magnum Short-action be equiv. to a standard long-action? I guess I'm trying to decide if there is an advantage for me to select one over the other, or does one give me more flexibility (aka - Long's will load a short round, but not the other way)

Don’t confuse yourself with long Vs. Short action; pick the caliber and that choice is made for you. .308 will be a short action and 30-06 would be a long action.
 

If I got a 30-06 rifle (long action) could it shoot .308 rounds (short action)? What about 300 Blackouts?

No, a .308 and 30-06 are not interchangeable. There are millions of pages you can google and read about .308 vs. 30-06. They are both excellent rounds and both will stop any man or beast you will encounter in North America. Let’s look at the choice between the two with some common sense. Which caliber does the military and law enforcement use in general? .308 has been used by both military snipers and LEO SWAT teams for years. The 30-06 is not in use in those rolls anymore.
.308 cheap ammo is still in production; 30-06 is not, when the surplus is gone; it’s gone. Commercial hunting ammo in 30-06 will be available as it is still a popular hunting caliber.

.308 is a 1000 yard round; it’s proven that time after time. You will not be in a shooting situation where you need something that will shoot farther than a .308, especially not target shooting. When you find somewhere to shoot at 1000 yards, and you get some experience at 1000 yards; you will be replacing the equipment you are buying now anyway.

300 Blackout is a round you might want if you want a suppressed 30 caliber weapon. It’s a round to get a 30 caliber sub sonic. It is not want you want in a long range rifle.

 

In case it's not apparent yet, one of my goals w/ this rifle is to be able to use it should things in this country turn south (no, not making a yankee-joke!) I'm worried that some day the HNIC@1600 may make it so all this stuff is not readily and easily available (though one reason I relocated to TN was I figured this would be one of the last states to comply with any of those demands...). Should that day come, what platform can I acquire that will give me the best results and most flexibility to handle as many possible situations? I don't want a large gun collection, just a few pieces, so need to be selective. I have the Shotgun already, am acquiring pistols for the wife and I now, and will get a couple .22's for my Boys. The only piece missing is a big-boom-stick to hit something at the other end of my property... Maybe I won't be able to find 308's but someone's offering to trade a box of 30-06... can I get a gun that shoots both (w/o having to buy all the extra barrels and such Supafly mentioned w/ the Savage... though I admit, that may be the solution to my problem - one gun that has many barrels).

My weapon for that scenario is not a bolt action rifle; it a .308 DPMS Panther (the type is commonly referred to as AR10) It’s a semi-auto .308 in an AR configuration with 20 round mags. No, it is not interchangeable with an AR-15 and there is no Mil-Std for it. It would make a great hunting rifle, and is a good target rifle. It costs to feed it. If you are worried about ammo cost stay with .223 in an AR.

I always have to smile when I see this perception that you will run out of ammo and need to “trade” ammo. Keep a couple hundred or more rounds on hand; then it’s a non-issue.

[gregintenn]

[URL=http://s612.photobucket.com/user/gregintenn/media/IMG_2681_zps9cwo7qla.jpg.html][/URL]

Might I recommend the 30-06? It's been the gold standard here in the U.S. for over 100 years. Every magazine article your read about a particular rifle cartridge compares it to a 30-06. If a store has but one caliber of rifle ammo for sale, chances are it's 30-06.

[ReeferMac]

My weapon for that scenario is not a bolt action rifle; it a .308 DPMS Panther (the type is commonly referred to as AR10) It’s a semi-auto .308 in an AR configuration with 20 round mags. No, it is not interchangeable with an AR-15 and there is no Mil-Std for it. It would make a great hunting rifle, and is a good target rifle. It costs to feed it. If you are worried about ammo cost stay with .223 in an AR.

 

Appreciate the info Dave, but unless things go seriously wrong, 99% of the lead through that barrel will be spent at the range beyond 200 yards by me on a Saturday morning w/ a cup of coffee. The added concerns are because I don't want to have a large gun collection, I want to add one rifle that will handle many situations, that included. I've played around w/ the AR-style, and that's just not what I'm looking for. The focus, breathing, concentration, and reward, of individual long-range rifle shooting has always been attractive to me from a sport/relaxation standpoint. It just screams a Bolt-action setup to me. The Semi-Auto's are nice, but that's not it for me. My concern is akin to the comment Dolomite made about the savage. I'd hate to get to the range and find out "Brand X lets you..." It's one reason I got the Mossberg Shotgun: $150 and the twist of a bolt gets me a rifled barrel shotgun in addition to my smooth bore.

 

Ditto gregintenn, you've noticed I keep coming back to one of those numbers you somehow manage to ALWAYS see on the shelf. Used to be like that for .22's... never thought I'd see it happen, but here we are!

 

Thanks again for all the great info and discussion guys! Helping me learn a lot.

 

- K
 

[DaveTN]

Appreciate the info Dave, but unless things go seriously wrong, 99% of the lead through that barrel will be spent at the range beyond 200 yards by me on a Saturday morning w/ a cup of coffee. The added concerns are because I don't want to have a large gun collection, I want to add one rifle that will handle many situations, that included. I've played around w/ the AR-style, and that's just not what I'm looking for. The focus, breathing, concentration, and reward, of individual long-range rifle shooting has always been attractive to me from a sport/relaxation standpoint. It just screams a Bolt-action setup to me. The Semi-Auto's are nice, but that's not it for me. My concern is akin to the comment Dolomite made about the savage. I'd hate to get to the range and find out "Brand X lets you..." It's one reason I got the Mossberg Shotgun: $150 and the twist of a bolt gets me a rifled barrel shotgun in addition to my smooth bore.
 
Ditto gregintenn, you've noticed I keep coming back to one of those numbers you somehow manage to ALWAYS see on the shelf. Used to be like that for .22's... never thought I'd see it happen, but here we are!
 
Thanks again for all the great info and discussion guys! Helping me learn a lot.
 
- K

I thought we were discussing bolt action rifles until you threw out the SHTF scenario. I love bolt action rifles, and thought that was what you were locked in on.




But there is just no way are they a SHTF rifle in any way shape or form. One rifle for everything? That would be an AR10.
As I said before; we all want one rifle that will do everything and one handgun that will do everything.. They don’t exist. That’s why they call them gun “collections”.

[Omega]

I still like the Remington 700 in .308, it has been a great rifle for years. And though it has had some recalls for the trigger, most really didn't need it (could be it's own thread). I sent mine in, it was just to clean the trigger and lock tite the screws. While I like my ARs, and liked building them, once built if I want something different I built something else. Even lowers get their own uppers, I just can't swap pieces around, though that is what I intended in the first place. And that's just two pins, add much more than that and I am building a new gun.

For true SHTF scenarios, I will stick to the AR in 5.56. I will not go with the 300Blk, though I love this round. But you have to tinker with it too much once you run out of ammo, and chances of finding this "in the wild" will be a rarity. Now for car carry in pistol it can't be beat.

As far as shortages, even in the worst of times I could always find 5.56 and .308 as well as 7.62x39. As long as you stay with current military rounds there will be availability.

[Handsome Rob]

Might I suggest simplifying your options?

.308

Good to 1000+ yds, capable of being loaded up for buffalo & down for foxes. Does everything you'll ever need efficiently, cheaply & easily.

Remington 700adl or Savage Hog Hunter.
Both blind magazine, both under $500, both supremely accurate, both readily available.

Nikon, Vortex, Leupold scope. 3-9x40. More than enough glass for your needs. $200 will get you very good glass from all 3 manufacturers.

K.I.S.S. ;)

[ReeferMac]

I thought we were discussing bolt action rifles until

 

LOL! Allright, lets get "Dad's Saturday Morning Boom Stick" first, and then you guys can talk me into an AR for messing around with!

[ReeferMac]

As far as shortages, even in the worst of times I could always find 5.56 and .308 as well as 7.62x39. As long as you stay with current military rounds there will be availability.

 

Thanks Omega, that issue was one reason I initially chose the 308, same as 7.62 NATO.

Thanks robtattoo, I did like the way the Remington felt, but want to look into the Savage more? The comments about it's versatility, and being able to swap parts at home really has some appeal to me.

 

- K

[Dolomite_supafly]

308 Winchester and 7.62x51 are not the same and cannot be interchanged in some guns. 7.62x51 is loaded to a much lower pressure than 308 Winchester. Because of this some surplus guns chambered for 7.62x51 can be damaged by shooting 308 Winchester.

 

ETA: Dimensionally they are identical

Edited October 11, 2015 by Dolomite_supafly

[DaveTN]

Thanks Omega, that issue was one reason I initially chose the 308, same as 7.62 NATO.

7.62Nato is 7.62X51. 7.62x39 is AK (and others) ammo. Not even close to the same.

7.62Nato (military) and .308 (commercial) are close to being the same, but they are not exactly the same. The commercial ammo can be more powerful than the military ammo. It’s argued all the time, but you need to know they are not the same.

[ReeferMac]

Interesting, I did not know that, thanks for clarifying, guys. It's odd that Cheaper-than-dirt lumps them into the same category?

 

So, while I may be able to insert the cartridge into the chamber and pull the trigger, it may malfunction and possibly damage the rifle and rifle operator.

(Or is there a chance it will go bang and just give sub-standard performance since we're talking bolt-action cycle)?

 

Since a 308 rifle is designed for greater pressure, I'm guessing it will be able to handle the NATO round w/o damaging the gun, just the bullet may not perform as desired?

 

- K
 

Edited October 11, 2015 by ReeferMac

[Handsome Rob]

Yep. You CAN shoot 7.62 Nato in a .308

You SHOULDN'T shoot .308 in a 7.62 Nato. Edited October 11, 2015 by robtattoo

[mike243]

6mm 243 or 25/06 any and all will do what you want without breaking the bank or shoulder

[gregintenn]

6mm 243 or 25/06 any and all will do what you want without breaking the bank or shoulder

Indeed! My neighbor brought over a new Savage Axis this afternoon in 243. At first groups were dismal, but kept shrinking until we were getting 3/4" groups at 100 yards with factory ammo.

 

I got out an old 99 Savage, also in 243. I let him shoot it. He fired five shots: 3 in one hole in the middle of the 1/2" bull, and the other two touching the edge of the bullseye.

 

Also, my shoulder doesn't hurt after several boxes of ammo!

 

243 has also been quite plentiful on store shelves, as well as relatively inexpensive.

[Omega]

Interesting, I did not know that, thanks for clarifying, guys. It's odd that Cheaper-than-dirt lumps them into the same category?
 
So, while I may be able to insert the cartridge into the chamber and pull the trigger, it may malfunction and possibly damage the rifle and rifle operator.
(Or is there a chance it will go bang and just give sub-standard performance since we're talking bolt-action cycle)?
 
Since a 308 rifle is designed for greater pressure, I'm guessing it will be able to handle the NATO round w/o damaging the gun, just the bullet may not perform as desired?
 
- K

Due to the fact that Military 7.62x51, NATO, is lower in pressure than commercial .308 you will have no problem using it in any .308 rifle. It's when you go into Military rifles chambered for the 7.62x51 that you may, and that's a big may, have problems. I have not noticed any performance issues with NATO ammunition, that is as long as you are not expecting sub MOA performance out of it. Many NATO rounds are probably 1.5 minimum MOA (most 3-4 MOA), add any MOA added by the weapons system and you can have a lot of slop. But even then, you can put a round in an 8" circle at a considerable distance so nothing to worry about. If you ever get into long range competitions, you will probably be reloading by then so you will make sub MOA ammo and have a better rifle as well.

[PoofNoEyeBrows]

+1 on a M1A. Very consistent and well proven platform. Very easy to configure and find places to handle modifications as well. Only issue I see with them is price.

[SmokyBaer]

+1 on a M1A. Very consistent and well proven platform. Very easy to configure and find places to handle modifications as well. Only issue I see with them is price.

 

Agreed.

 

I been hooked on 1911s and M1As/M14s for over 30 years and they still make range time fun.  Yes, expensive BUT ,in my opinion, worth it.  A 20 round 2-liter bottle blaster one day, a 5 round hunter the next.  Fer plinkin, use 147gr surplus or PRVI then switch to 150gr Silvertips or Powershoks for meat on the table.  It's all in what you want.  Especially for inside 300.

 

As ReeferMac or any other active shooter getting into the sport will recognize there's always something new to try out and conquer.... calibers, stocks, twist rates, powder, bullet co-efficients, scope types.  The list is endless.  Been there and it has been a great ride.  Have fun discovering the nuances.  That's what it's all about.