Multiple Dead in Oregon College Shooting

[R_Bert]

bersaguy, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:bersaguy, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:bersaguy, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:bersaguy, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:bersaguy, on 05 Oct 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I am not sure but it seems to me that there is somewhere in the Bible it states that you cannot be forgiven if you commit suicide. If you stand up and knowing the shooter is killing just Christians and you admit to being one is that not the same as committing suicide? I really don't know so would like to hear a few thoughts on that. I am a Christian, just not a Bible thumping in Church every time the doors are open kind but believe in God and try to live right and did go to Church as a child most of my younger life. Like Dolo said about being a Martyr here and standing up willing to be killed. That would be like receiving your reward here on Earth as a Martyr for your beliefs. :confused:..... Kind of confusing is it not?...............jmho

Dying as a Martyr in Christ (even if you admit to being Christ Follower in front of your killer) is not suicide. No person of strong faith would even be capable of denying Him.  Check out the story of Stephen.  Very much a similar situation (except rocks, not guns)...  Scripture records that Jesus stood up (!) in anticipation of Stephen.

 

Second, once a believer and professing faith, there is nothing that one can do to self to remove self from grace & salvation. Even those who were indeed saved, and later recanted... may be surprised.  Just as those who think good behavior / good works will get one into Heaven. God's grace is indeed amazing.

Edited October 5, 2015 by R_Bert

[CommsNBombs]

Matthew 10:33 KJV

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

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[R_Bert]

CommsNBombs, on 05 Oct 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

Matthew 10:33 KJV

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

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correct.

 

 

A comment on my comment above (and not contrary to Matthew 10:33),  - denying Him.... and losing faith over time, are not the same. 

 

Romans 8:38-39New Living Translation (NLT)

³⁸ And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,^[a] neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. ³⁹ No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Sam1]

I am not sure but it seems to me that there is somewhere in the Bible it states that you cannot be forgiven if you commit suicide. If you stand up and knowing the shooter is killing just Christians and you admit to being one is that not the same as committing suicide? I really don't know so would like to hear a few thoughts on that. I am a Christian, just not a Bible thumping in Church every time the doors are open kind but believe in God and try to live right and did go to Church as a child most of my younger life. Like Dolo said about being a Martyr here and standing up willing to be killed. That would be like receiving your reward here on Earth as a Martyr for your beliefs. :confused:..... Kind of confusing is it not?...............jmho

The only mortal sin I know of in the bible is to denounce Jesus.

Edit... sorry, posted before scrolling the rest of the way down. Edited October 5, 2015 by Sam1

[DaveTN]

Denying him and telling a killer what he wants to hear are two very different things. Just like our laws; it’s all about intent.

I’ll say whatever someone wants to hear if it keeps me alive. Anything less makes no sense.

[R_Bert]

DaveTN, on 05 Oct 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:DaveTN, on 05 Oct 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

Denying him and telling a killer what he wants to hear are two very different things. Just like our laws; it’s all about intent.

I’ll say whatever someone wants to hear if it keeps me alive. Anything less makes no sense.

 

I personally do not see it that way.  Scripture tells me to put my faith in Christ even over my life - all of it.  If not, why believe in Him the first place?

 

Now... do I have the ability....  I hope so.  I would live in shame the rest of my life otherwise.

Edited October 5, 2015 by R_Bert

[CommsNBombs]

I personally do not see it that way. Scripture tells me to put my faith in Christ even over my life - all of it. If not, why believe in Him the first place?

Now... do I have the ability.... I hope so. I would live in shame the rest of my life otherwise.

That is what has been bothering me.

If I was there, and being unarmed and he had his gun on me - knowing I have a wife and daughter on the way...would I be able to shed my earthly existance in that moment and not hide my faith?

I would be living with too much shame, but I know saying yes would make my wife (whom also is a Christian) angry at me and at God.

Its a FUBAR situation - best scenario is I am also armed and can defend myself and others.

What I would have loved to put a 200gr 10mm in his face.

[mikegideon]

That is what has been bothering me.

If I was there, and being unarmed and he had his gun on me - knowing I have a wife and daughter on the way...would I be able to shed my earthly existance in that moment and not hide my faith?

I would be living with too much shame, but I know saying yes would make my wife (whom also is a Christian) angry at me and at God.

Its a FUBAR situation - best scenario is I am also armed and can defend myself and others.

What I would have loved to put a 200gr 10mm in his face.

 

There is a real simple solution. I'm not gonna say it, but I'm damn sure gonna practice it from now on.

[nightrunner]

If I were about to be executed for my faith, especially in front of many others, I would pray for the strength of Samson and the speed of light to overcome him. And then use everything I had to send him to Lucifer.

[E4 No More]

I am not sure but it seems to me that there is somewhere in the Bible it states that you cannot be forgiven if you commit suicide. If you stand up and knowing the shooter is killing just Christians and you admit to being one is that not the same as committing suicide? I really don't know so would like to hear a few thoughts on that. I am a Christian, just not a Bible thumping in Church every time the doors are open kind but believe in God and try to live right and did go to Church as a child most of my younger life. Like Dolo said about being a Martyr here and standing up willing to be killed. That would be like receiving your reward here on Earth as a Martyr for your beliefs. :confused:..... Kind of confusing is it not?...............jmho

The word "suicide" does not appear in the Bible. Catholics and some other religions teach that, but it is not founded in scripture. Jesus could, (in a sense), be looked to today as "Death by cop" for that matter.

[Hozzie]

So I will probably get crucified for this as apparently I am the resident anti-Christ, but I have a serious question.

 

If you were asked and you really believe, why would not say it?  Wouldn't whatever happened after that be God's will as many would like to say.  If you are true believer, it seems there is no choice, no?

 

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand someone saying No if they thought it would keep them alive, but as some have suggested, that may not be the scriptural thing to do.  I would guess some will say, God will understand and forgive you, but that is what I guess bothers me.  Seems to me you can know what you should do and not do it and in the end, it doesn't matter.  Really, some would say you can do anything and if you truly repent, then God will forgive you.  I guess I just see that as too easy of an out.

 

Let's be clear, I would tell anyone to say whatever keeps them alive, but it is these issues where I really see some of the most vocal religious voices (not talking specifically on here, but just in general) as hypocritical.  

[Oh Shoot]

I would have have said "atheist". Oh wait .... ;)

 

But seriously, I don't have to stay totally consistent with that ... iffen the shootin starts between you Christians and the Muslims in the streets, I reckon I'll shoot at the Muslims, since I already know English and all, and youse guys won't put me to death as a non-believer. ;)

 

- OS

[R_Bert]

Hozzie, on 05 Oct 2015 - 2:06 PM, said:

So I will probably get crucified for this as apparently I am the resident anti-Christ, but I have a serious question.

 

If you were asked and you really believe, why would not say it?  Wouldn't whatever happened after that be God's will as many would like to say.  If you are true believer, it seems there is no choice, no?

 

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand someone saying No if they thought it would keep them alive, but as some have suggested, that may not be the scriptural thing to do.  I would guess some will say, God will understand and forgive you, but that is what I guess bothers me.  Seems to me you can know what you should do and not do it and in the end, it doesn't matter.  Really, some would say you can do anything and if you truly repent, then God will forgive you.  I guess I just see that as too easy of an out.

 

Let's be clear, I would tell anyone to say whatever keeps them alive, but it is these issues where I really see some of the most vocal religious voices (not talking specifically on here, but just in general) as hypocritical.  

You sir, are closer to the Gospel of Christ than you might think. 

[E4 No More]

So I will probably get crucified for this as apparently I am the resident anti-Christ, but I have a serious question.

 

If you were asked and you really believe, why would not say it?  Wouldn't whatever happened after that be God's will as many would like to say.  If you are true believer, it seems there is no choice, no?

 

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand someone saying No if they thought it would keep them alive, but as some have suggested, that may not be the scriptural thing to do.  I would guess some will say, God will understand and forgive you, but that is what I guess bothers me.  Seems to me you can know what you should do and not do it and in the end, it doesn't matter.  Really, some would say you can do anything and if you truly repent, then God will forgive you.  I guess I just see that as too easy of an out.

 

Let's be clear, I would tell anyone to say whatever keeps them alive, but it is these issues where I really see some of the most vocal religious voices (not talking specifically on here, but just in general) as hypocritical.  

Under a stressful situation in the heat of the moment, it isn't easy to say with accuracy what you would really do in this situation. Monday morning quarterbacking is very easy, no? This is a very complicated subject to communicate in this venue to someone who doesn't believe: however, suffice it to say that once you are "saved" you are always saved. Not all "Christians" believe that, and, (IMHO), a lot of that differing belief stems from dogma rather than scripture.

 

In my case I would like to think I'd say it, but I'd probably be more focused on going down fighting than answering questions, (even at my age). But most people question God's will because they don't understand the fundamental aspects of being a Christian, and they also confuse forgiveness of sins with mitigation of the consequences of sin. To put the concept to the extreme, if I were to murder someone I can be forgiven of the sin, but I danged sure am likely to go to prison/receive the death penalty. God doesn't tend to remove the consequences of your sin.

 

PS: Also don't confuse God's will as God's want. They are two different things.

Edited October 5, 2015 by SWJewellTN

[Hozzie]

Monday morning quarterbacking is very easy, no?

 

To put the concept to the extreme, if I were to murder someone I can be forgiven of the sin, but I danged sure am likely to go to prison/receive the death penalty. God doesn't tend to remove the consequences of your sin.

 

Agree on item 1 for sure.  That applies to anything.

For the second, My next question would be if you are a true believer, then why do you care if you get executed, you would be going to heaven, no?   Without throwing circumstances for murder into the situation, I just can't reconcile anyone being forgiven of some of these crimes.  I guess I am too cynical to believe the I got caught and now I'm sorry routine so they think they will be forgiven.  

 

I guess it doesn't matter what I think if you believe as I am not the judge, but I feel like it is a bit of an easy way out.

[Oh Shoot]

....

In my case I would like to think I'd say it,....

 

Islam is much more pragmatic on this issue, since it's fine to lie to infidels for a variety of reasons, in this case that being saving one's ass. That's certainly at least one thing it has in common with my own belief system. ;)

 

- OS

[bersaguy]

I was glad to see so many responses to my confusion question. It clears up quite a bit. Like I said , I am not a Bible thumping church every Sunday christian. I do Love God the Father and Jesus his son with all my heart, was baptized in in a river along with about 20 other folks in Kingston Springs as a child and then again as an adult to reaffirm my dedication to my beliefs.  Like others have said, if I am ever faced with a situation like that I hope that I will be packing because I will not go quietly into the night without doing everything in my power to take the bad guy with me...................jmho

[E4 No More]

Agree on item 1 for sure.  That applies to anything.

For the second, My next question would be if you are a true believer, then why do you care if you get executed, you would be going to heaven, no?   Without throwing circumstances for murder into the situation, I just can't reconcile anyone being forgiven of some of these crimes.  I guess I am too cynical to believe the I got caught and now I'm sorry routine so they think they will be forgiven.  

 

I guess it doesn't matter what I think if you believe as I am not the judge, but I feel like it is a bit of an easy way out.

Just because you are a true believe doesn't mean that you want to die. God says to die is to gain: however, I still worry for my wife and family. I'm not afraid to die, but I do fear how I die. You can't reconcile forgiveness because you can't think as God does. That's a hard thing for people to grasp, and they complain that God doesn't do what we think God should do. Well, we aren't God.

 

Again, this isn't a good venue for this kind of conversation. This is best done face-to-face with someone who's well-grounded in the Bible; not religion. God isn't about a religion; he's about a relationship.

[bersaguy]

Just because you are a true believe doesn't mean that you want to die. God says to die is to gain: however, I still worry for my wife and family. I'm not afraid to die, but I do fear how I die. You can't reconcile forgiveness because you can't think as God does. That's a hard thing for people to grasp, and they complain that God doesn't do what we think God should do. Well, we aren't God.

 

Again, this isn't a good venue for this kind of conversation. This is best done face-to-face with someone who's well-grounded in the Bible; not religion. God isn't about a religion; he's about a relationship.

I learned many years ago not to fear death so long as it is quick. What I have also learned over the years I have become more afraid of life than I fear death. What the medical industry considers life is any brain activity what so ever, breathing and heart beating. To me that is not life, but existence.  That is my worst fear. If I am to die let me die fighting with honor and dignity and not a lab experiment.......................JMHO

[Hozzie]

Again, this isn't a good venue for this kind of conversation. This is best done face-to-face with someone who's well-grounded in the Bible; not religion. God isn't about a religion; he's about a relationship.

 

I like that way of putting it.  It won't change how I feel about it, but I can at least respect the idea.

[Ted S.]

So I will probably get crucified for this as apparently I am the resident anti-Christ, but I have a serious question.

 

If you were asked and you really believe, why would not say it?  Wouldn't whatever happened after that be God's will as many would like to say.  If you are true believer, it seems there is no choice, no?

 

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand someone saying No if they thought it would keep them alive, but as some have suggested, that may not be the scriptural thing to do.  I would guess some will say, God will understand and forgive you, but that is what I guess bothers me.  Seems to me you can know what you should do and not do it and in the end, it doesn't matter.  Really, some would say you can do anything and if you truly repent, then God will forgive you.  I guess I just see that as too easy of an out.

 

Let's be clear, I would tell anyone to say whatever keeps them alive, but it is these issues where I really see some of the most vocal religious voices (not talking specifically on here, but just in general) as hypocritical.  

 

I don't know if anyone can truthfully answer that question until they're met with such a situation.

 

EDIT: Just realized there is some adult language in this, so I'll just link to it instead: https://www.patreon.com/posts/3523364

Edited October 5, 2015 by Ted S.

[DaveTN]

My god is a loving God; not a vengeful God. I know where I am going and I know it makes no difference what I say to a thug that is pointing a gun at me.

My God would know that me saying whatever a killer wants to hear is not denying him. No, everything is not predestined and meant to be. If it was I could walk up and down I-24 blindfolded.

But we can’t argue these questions for you; you have to find out for yourself. You are responsible for your own salvation. Edited October 5, 2015 by DaveTN

[Hozzie]

But we can’t argue these questions for you; you have to find out for yourself. You are responsible for your own salvation.

I have no internal debate going on. I am perfectly content in my beliefs, they're actually very simple. I just really do wonder sometimes how religious people reconcile these items which I personally find contradictory. As mentioned before, we aren't going t solve this here. It is just a discussion.

[Oh Shoot]

My god is a loving God; not a vengeful God. I know where I am going and I know it makes no difference what I say to a thug that is pointing a gun at me.

 

Really!

 

Anyone Buddhist to Baptist to Zoroastrian and every faith in between who wouldn't lie to an insane maniac in order to live is about as loony as the perp.

 

- OS

[Ron_TN]

I am not sure but it seems to me that there is somewhere in the Bible it states that you cannot be forgiven if you commit suicide. If you stand up and knowing the shooter is killing just Christians and you admit to being one is that not the same as committing suicide? I really don't know so would like to hear a few thoughts on that. I am a Christian, just not a Bible thumping in Church every time the doors are open kind but believe in God and try to live right and did go to Church as a child most of my younger life. Like Dolo said about being a Martyr here and standing up willing to be killed. That would be like receiving your reward here on Earth as a Martyr for your beliefs. :confused:..... Kind of confusing is it not?...............jmho

They did not know what his intetentions where when he ask them....I'm sure if they knew his intent was kill christains they would never had admitted it.......HUH?  Do you really think they wanted to die and said that they where christains......what are you smoking?