AR-15 handgun question

[ma6907]

I have several AR-15s.  I enjoy shooting them but do not know as much about long guns as I do about handguns.  I recently read a "Shooting Times" article about AR-15 handguns that got me thinking about them.  Here is the question (if it is a stupid one, please don't bash me)--If I buy an 11.5 inch upper complete with barrel, do I just attach it to ANY lower (as in removing one of my existing uppers) or are some other modifications necessary?  I was thinking of using one of my Sabre lowers (made in Nashville) and buying a Sabre upper/barrel.  No I don't need one (is my wife here?) and no I have no idea why I would, in practicaliyt need one, or what I really plan to do with it.  I just seemingly want one and was wondering the answer.  I cannot find the answer by "googling" so I thought I would ask here.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If the lower was a rifle first it must always remain a rifle. If it is a pistol first it can go back and forth providing it is never assumed into an NFA item.

If you have a barrel less than 16" on a lower WITH a stock you have made an illegal firearm unless you have paid your $200 tax to build it.

[teecro]

Here is how I understand it... If the ATF form 4473 was filled out as a rifle then the lower can never be made into a pistol... And you are also never supposed to even for fun while sitting in your closet are you to attach a lower with a stock to a pistol upper.... The ATF will come and arrest you sight unseen....

[ehull20000]

Dolomite nailed it while I was writing my response.  

 

I tackled my pistol build by buying a stripped lower that had never been a rifle or pistol.  Then I built the weapon myself and is has never been anything but a pistol.    

[SupaRice]

Welcome to one of the most idiotic laws ever created.

[ma6907]

Thanks everyone.  That is why I asked.  And why I couldn't find the answer--cause it is not legal!

Edited September 29, 2015 by ma6907

[Dolomite_supafly]

The 4473 has no bearing on what the firearm is classed at. ATF has stated that lowers WITH a stock is not considered a rifle because it is lacking the upper despite the fact most FFLs will try to transfer as a rifle.

[ma6907]

The 4473 has no bearing on what the firearm is classed at. ATF has stated that lowers WITH a stock is not considered a rifle because it is lacking the upper despite the fact most FFLs will try to transfer as a rifle.

you lost me on that one @dolomite?

[Jct1911]

To avoid any confusion, I bought a mega lower that was marked pistol, also when I had it transferred I had the FFL put it as "semi-auto pistol". All the rest have been transferred as other and could be built as either, but have been built as rifles. SBR tax stamp or pinned muzzle device is the only way to get sub 16" barrel and a stock in a legal package. I have both, SBR is totally worth the $200.

[Oh Shoot]

you lost me on that one @dolomite?

 
He's right on.
 
What an FFL puts on a 4473, either correctly or incorrectly, does not determine the actual legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of a given future configuration of it.
 
Used lowers are transferred as "other firearm", same as virgin lowers. However, if the used lower was initially configured as a rifle, it cannot be configured as a pistol.
 
A lower cannot become a rifle or a pistol without an attached barrel. In other words, you can buy a new complete lower with stock attached, but it's still perfectly legal to make a pistol from it (of course you would remove the stock before attaching the short barrel, eh?).
 
Obviously, if you make a rifle from a virgin lower yourself, the odds are nobody could ever know that if you later made it into a pistol -- but it's nonetheless illegal should you somehow be found out. But equally obvious is that if the lower left a manufacturer configured as a rifle, it's a simple matter to find out its original configuration should push ever come to shove between you and the ATF.

 

 

Here is how I understand it... If the ATF form 4473 was filled out as a rifle then the lower can never be made into a pistol... And you are also never supposed to even for fun while sitting in your closet are you to attach a lower with a stock to a pistol upper.... The ATF will come and arrest you sight unseen....

 

Perfectly legal to make a pistol from virgin lower, later configure it as a rifle and sell it through FFL as such. The new owner could still legally make it into a pistol. (unlikely, I know, as he would have to know and trust the actual history of that lower).

 

Again, what an FFL puts on a 4473, either correctly or incorrectly, does not determine the actual legal classification of a firearm, nor the legality of a given future configuration of it.

 

If he incorrectly marks your revolver as a "long gun", does that make it so? Of course not.

If he correctly marks your used original rifle lower as "other firearm", does that mean you can make a pistol from it? Nope.

 

- OS

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Oh Shoot]

To avoid any confusion, I bought a mega lower that was marked pistol, also when I had it transferred I had the FFL put it as "semi-auto pistol". ...

 

If, since Aug of 2008, an FFL checks anything but "other firearm" for a receiver in question 18, or writes anything but "receiver", "lower", or similar in question 29, he is in violation of ATF guidelines, and could be in some hot water.

 

But again, it doesn't matter at all what he put down as for test of legality on your part, and also,  the "pistol" marking on it is legally meaningless both federally and in any state.

 

- OS

Edited September 29, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Jct1911]

If, since Aug of 2008, an FFL checks anything but "other firearm" for a receiver in question 18, or writes anything but "receiver", "lower", or similar in question 29, he is in violation of ATF guidelines, and could be in some hot water.

But again, it doesn't matter at all what he put down as for test of legality on your part, and also, the "pistol" marking on it is legally meaningless both federally and in any state.

- OS

Maybe, this was 3yrs ago. I'm not an FFL, I'll leave that to him, I assume he knows what he is doing. I know it means nothing, but to unknowing prying eyes, it's a pistol and says so on the side.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Welcome to one of the most idiotic laws ever created.

Absolutely!  I also think that people worry a tad too much about it.  I am all about staying legal, but I have known multiple federal LEOs and have a good sense of what federal prosecutors are willing to concern themselves with.  I am very confident that the likelihood of the average person being hammered over this nuance in the law is virtually zero.  On multiple occasions I saw the feds pass on cases involving convicted felons in possession of crack cocaine and a firearm used in a gun crime.  I have also personally dealt with a case where a woman lied on her ATF form to buy a pistol that she presumably planned to use to kill her ex-boyfriend who was a fellow LEO (the reason she was caught is that I worked at the gun store part time and knew she was under a domestic violence protection order when she tried to buy the gun).  If the feds aren't going to bother with those kinds of crimes, they sure don't give a hoot about Average Joe and whether his AR pistol might have ever had a 16" barrel on it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by East_TN_Patriot

[Farman]

If I go into Georgia with my AR pistol (built as a pistol) and am questioned by an ATF agent how do I prove it's a legal pistol.
Is assembling parts purchased from different sources manufacturing? If not, why do I have to purchase my stripped receiver through an FFL?
What a bunch of convoluted rules. 

[nightrunner]

If I go into Georgia with my AR pistol (built as a pistol) and am questioned by an ATF agent how do I prove it's a legal pistol.
Is assembling parts purchased from different sources manufacturing? If not, why do I have to purchase my stripped receiver through an FFL?
What a bunch of convoluted rules.

As I understand it, firearms manufacturing is defined by creating the serialized part from raw materials or materials not suitable to be used in a firearm(i.e., 80% AR lower machines into a usable lower).

[Omega]

If I go into Georgia with my AR pistol (built as a pistol) and am questioned by an ATF agent how do I prove it's a legal pistol.
Is assembling parts purchased from different sources manufacturing? If not, why do I have to purchase my stripped receiver through an FFL?
What a bunch of convoluted rules. 

Too easy, first you show him that there is no stock attached to it and then that the barrel is under 16".  If he has any further doubts, then the rest of it is up to them to prove.

[DMark]

This might help some - - - BUT be aware that some unknown ATF bureaucrat sitting in a remote office cubicle could completely change the meaning of the English language at any moment and turn all of the Green checkmarks into Red Xs.   

 

[Farman]

Thanks guys. I was pretty sure of these things but put question forward  anyway.
The chart from Dmark is great. Thanks

[hipower]

Dmark...thank you for the chart. That is a great aid for me, and probably many others. 

 

I think I knew most of it, but having it as a visual aid is tremendously helpful. I will print this and keep it.

[JohnC]

If you're nervous about it, just buy a Mega lower like this marked "PISTOL" and might as well get a Mega upper because their fitment is excellent!

http://www.rainierarms.com/mega-forged-lower-6200

http://www.rainierarms.com/upper-mega-forged-stripped-6857

[monkeylizard]

As Dolomite said above, markings on the lower don't mean anything.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/91172-ar-15-handgun-question/?p=1309965

Edited September 29, 2015 by monkeylizard

[Omega]

As Dolomite said above, markings on the lower don't mean anything.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/topic/91172-ar-15-handgun-question/?p=1309965

While this is "legally" true, I believe perception plays a big part in it too.  While there are no ATF types out there looking for any markings, if a lower has "Pistol" factory or professionally marked on it, the layman will rarely question it, same goes for "Auto".  And its usually some overzealous RSO or shooter that gets the ball rolling into an investigation. If you go to a range with a lower marked  "Auto" and some RSO sees that, I can bet he will say something and either not let you shoot (if the range does not allow that) or make you prove that it doesn't go full auto.

[monkeylizard]

I wonder what those RSOs would make of this.

 

[SupaRice]

This might help some - - - BUT be aware that some unknown ATF bureaucrat sitting in a remote office cubicle could completely change the meaning of the English language at any moment and turn all of the Green checkmarks into Red Xs.

So according to this if you have a pistol lower, which you put a standard upper on and stock ... making it a regular AR... but still have the pistol upper incase you want to convert it back... you're in violation?

Which you could argue that if you had an AR pistol AND a full AR... you're also in violation by the concept of being able to swap out uppers quickly?

[Oh Shoot]

So according to this if you have a pistol lower, which you put a standard upper on and stock ... making it a regular AR... but still have the pistol upper incase you want to convert it back... you're in violation?

Which you could argue that if you had an AR pistol AND a full AR... you're also in violation by the concept of being able to swap out uppers quickly?

 

If by "pistol lower" you mean one that is legal to make a pistol with, there is no violation of upper possession you can accomplish with what you mention.

 

".. an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they ... serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA
firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel)..."

 

Visual aid, this is my "kit AR" I bundled for awhile (lower began life as a pistol), a perfectly acceptable grouping of "aggregated parts in close proximity" to be out and about with,  as there is no scenario where one could ONLY make an NFA firearm. Take away the rifle uppers but leave the stock in the scenario however, and technically you have "made" an NFA firearm whether you actually assemble it a such or not.

 

At home, your entire property is considered "close proximity" by case law, so every part/component counts.

 

If all you owned were an AR pistol, with no 16" barrel in the mix, best to not have a stock (or vertical forward grip) at all.

 

Also note, however, East_TN_Patriot's previous post -- while possible,  a "constructive possession" charge is quite unlikely in and of itself.

 

 

 

- OS

Edited September 29, 2015 by Oh Shoot