Need advice on gun swap

[Dirtshooter]

Hey guys I may be doing a gun swap with a guy I don't know. How can I make sure he is ok to own a gun? He may not have a HCP as a lot of folks don't. Is getting a pic of his drivers license sufficient to cover me or not?  The gun is a nib ruger 10-22. Thanks up front for your help. Mac

[Oh Shoot]

Hey guys I may be doing a gun swap with a guy I don't know. How can I make sure he is ok to own a gun? He may not have a HCP as a lot of folks don't. Is getting a pic of his drivers license sufficient to cover me or not?  The gun is a nib ruger 10-22. Thanks up front for your help. Mac

 

Federal law is simply that you do not "know or have reasonable cause to believe" the recipient is not a resident of TN or is otherwise prohibited from firearm ownership. No proof is required. Nothing else is required under federal or TN law, and case law has never been established to require any documentation whatsoever to comply with that.

 

How far you want to go with that is up to you. Many folks just ask the buyer (or not), some require seeing a TDL for the residency part, some want to see HCP, some also want bill of sale.

 

Whatever you decide to require, state it upfront as part of the deal. And of course he should do the same in the case of a swap.

 

- OS

Edited September 28, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Pete123]

Mac,

 

I was nervous the first time I sold a gun on TGO and have now bought or sold quite a few.

 

There isn't a good way for you to determine whether someone should have a gun.  You would have to require that they meet you at an FFL and get a background check and hardly anyone will be willing to do that.  It's a hassle and adds to the price.  

 

My experience has been that emails ahead of meeting tell the story.  There was one guy who wanted to buy a gun and his emails became crazier and crazier and I didn't sell to him.

 

Many of the folks who will buy your gun are regulars on here.  There is a section on TGO where you can check folks deal history.  I don't worry at all if someone has a solid deal history and has posted a lot.

 

You can download a form, which I use for every purchase, sale or trade.  I require that they show me their DL or HCP and I show them mine.  We both sign it.  The link for the form is below.

 

It sounds like this sale is with someone who isn't a TGO member.  One of the great benefits of becoming a benefactor, which doesn't cost much, is that you can sell guns on the forum where it is easier to check folks out and where there is a string of emails which show discussions that have happened.

 

Good luck!

[Pete123]

Federal law is simply that you do not "know or have reasonable cause to believe" the recipient is not a resident of TN or is otherwise prohibited from firearm ownership. No proof is required. Nothing else is required under federal or TN law, and case law has never been established to require any documentation whatsoever to comply with that.

 

How far you want to go with that is up to you. Many folks just ask the buyer (or not), some require seeing a TDL for the residency part, some want to see HCP, some also want bill of sale.

 

Whatever you decide to require, state it upfront as part of the deal. And of course he should do the same in the case of a swap.

 

- OS

 

 

The more sales/trades/purchases I do, the more I see the value of what OS is saying - to state everything upfront.  Remember that you need to become a benefactor to sell on the forum, though it doesn't cost much.

[Dirtshooter]

Thanks guys, I didn't find him on TGO, he has an engine for trade for my truck that I need badly. We have texted and I will call him tomorrow before I go look at the engine. I wouldn't have asked if the was a TGO'er.

[DWARREN123]

Just ask him and/or do a bill of sale.

[Jonnin]

you could foot the bill to sell it to him through a shop --- they will do it but its a bunch of wasted money.   This checks the buyer AND the gun's serial, covering both bad seller and bad buyer.   I would only do this if the other person seems shady somehow.   

 

That said, a 10-22 is a low cap, weak cartridge, very large target pistol.   Its not exactly what your average criminal is going to go looking for in a buy.

[FUJIMO]

In the case of a 10-22 I simply ask if they're legal to own a gun and NOT a felon .

[DaveTN]

I understand people not wanting guns to get into the hands of nut cases. However, if the government had any real concern about it they would have a solution that isn’t just letting an FFL charge whatever they want to do a transfer.

As long as you don’t know the person is not allowed to purchase a firearm, and you get a signed bill of sale stating that he is legal to own, a resident of this state and shows proof of age; you have done all you can reasonably do.

Gun stores sell guns to nut cases that can pass a background check and then they go on a shooting spree; so that possibility always exists when selling firearms.

[gregintenn]

You: "Are you a Tennesse resident?"

Him: "Yes."

You: "Are you a convicted felon?"

Him: "No."

You: "Show me the money!"

 

 

You have no further legal obligation than this.

[monkeylizard]

You: "Are you a Tennesse resident?"

Him: "Yes."

You: "Are you a convicted felon?"

Him: "No."

You: "Show me the money!"

 

 

You have no further legal obligation than this.

 

You really don't have that much of a legal obligation. You just have to have no reasonable reason to think they're not a TN resident or are a felon. No need to even ask from a legal perspective.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Yeah. I ask if they are a resident and if they are prohibited from owning firearms. If they answer correctly and I don't get a bad vibe then I go through with the sale.

I will NEVER sell anything to anyone unwilling to talk on the phone. I also write the phone number on my hand as well as their plate number as I do a drive by before actually pulling in. That way if anything happens at least LE will have a place to start.

That is for complete strangers.

For TGO members with a post count I take the money and hand them the gun unless I get a bad vibe.

BTW, I have never got a bad vibe or refused to sell to anyone on TGO. And the people I have refused to sell to are those who won't talk on the phone or had a bad vibe about them.

But legally all you have to do is take money and hand over the gun unless you have reason to believe they cannot own a firearm.

BTW, certain misdemeanors can prevent ownership of firearms. I quit asking if people are felons and started asking if they are prohibited.

[DaveTN]

You really don't have that much of a legal obligation. You just have to have no reasonable reason to think they're not a TN resident or are a felon. No need to even ask from a legal perspective.

From what “legal perspective” are you speaking that you don’t think you need to see ID? You think if a 17 year old from Alabama buys a handgun off you and then is arrested; a “I thought he looked old enough and he was in Tennessee” is going to keep you from getting cuffed and stuffed?

[gregintenn]

From what “legal perspective” are you speaking that you don’t think you need to see ID? You think if a 17 year old from Alabama buys a handgun off you and then is arrested; a “I thought he looked old enough and he was in Tennessee” is going to keep you from getting cuffed and stuffed?

Unless you are aware of a law I haven't seen, then, yes. You should be clear unless it can be proven that you knowingly sold it illegally. We are citizens; not private investigators.

 

Dirtshooter is like me. The buyer is much more likely to be from Kentucky than Alabama. :D

[Oh Shoot]

From what “legal perspective” are you speaking that you don’t think you need to see ID? You think if a 17 year old from Alabama buys a handgun off you and then is arrested; a “I thought he looked old enough and he was in Tennessee” is going to keep you from getting cuffed and stuffed?

 

I know of no case law, federal or state of TN, where conviction for such would be found without direct proof of knowledge of such.

 

That's why stings always include, "hey I don't live in your state, but...", or "I can't buy a gun from a dealer, but", or "I'm only 17, but..."

 

Unless you are aware of a law I haven't seen, then, yes. You should be clear unless it can be proven that you knowingly sold it illegally. We are citizens; not private investigators.

 

Well, federal includes "reasonable cause to believe", so it's a bit more wiggle room for prosecution. As far as the minor part, TN law requires "Intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly", so I suppose "recklessly" might be about the same as "reasonable cause to believe".

 

But as per above comment, AFAIK burden of proof is about the same for both cases.

 

- OS

Edited September 28, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

I know of no case law, federal or state of TN, where conviction for such would be found without direct proof of knowledge of such.
 
That's why stings always include, "hey I don't live in your state, but...", or "I can't buy a gun from a dealer, but", or "I'm only 17, but..."

I don’t have access to search case law; where do you do it? I have no idea either if there are cases, but if things went south I sure wouldn’t want to rely on an “I’m not required to verify state of residency or age” defense.

Any reasonable person should know enough to ask for ID at the very least. I know there are people that want to believe the exchange of money is all that needs to happen; but that just isn’t true. But I think the OP got that.

[Dirtshooter]

Thanks for all the info, we decided to not swap after all this conversation. It is something to think about as I wouldn't want a gun that I had bought and traded be used to commit a crime. Mac

[Oh Shoot]

I don’t have access to search case law; where do you do it? I have no idea either if there are cases, but if things went south I sure wouldn’t want to rely on an “I’m not required to verify state of residency or age” defense.

 

If there were any, the gun community would know about them.  Nobody gets prosecuted for 18 USC 922 violation unless they've got real evidence that the transferer knew the transfer was unlawful. Hence the specifics of the stings I mentioned, which have proven to be completely legit, and not entrapment.

 

The reason the stings generally target the seller rather than the buyer is that an out of state buyer hasn't actually committed a crime until he takes the firearm back into his home state. Of course, they could target a specific buyer if they knew beforehand his history precluded possession period, but they couldn't do that at random like they can with sellers.

 

But it's simply not a crime here to sell a firearm to someone who merely claims to be legit for ownership, unless the seller has specific evidence to the contrary. If any documentation were required, it would be in the federal or state statutes.

 

- OS

Edited September 29, 2015 by Oh Shoot