"Immigration Reform"

[The Rabbi]

Few things in life come with a guarantee.

And I didn't "admit" anything. I said that in my first post.

While true, it is a cop-out when proposing a public policy.

If you said it in the first post I probably agreed then too.

[Guest GlocKingTN]

OK guys! This is really getting out of hand. I see more of "you" and less "them" in these postings. Marswolf has asked that you hold it down with the name calling and pointing fingers. We all here understand the problems we are facing dealing with this situation, but pointing fingers at fellow members ISN'T gonna solve anything!

First of all, bickering and fighting among fellow members surely isn't gonna solve the country's problem with illegal immigration!

So lets not point fingers and name call while trying to make a point that doesn't even involve the person you are attacking. We (meaning staff) want to see everyone on the board happy and getting along with everyone else.

I'm not trying to make anyone mad or anything, but the name calling and pointing fingers WILL stop! If you have a point or comment to make, then make it, and go on about your business.

Tungsten made this sub-forum to voice "Matters of opinion", not to voice opinions of each other.

Tungsten has made us Moderators for a reason. And thats to make sure everything runs smooth on the forum. Which means we have to make sure things dont get out of hand with anything or anyone. No-one is pointing fingers, but we will if it comes down to it.

So get off of the name calling and pointing fingers, please! The pointing fingers should be directed toward the government, if anyone!

Thanks, and have a great day!

[towerclimber37]

http://immigrationcounters.com/

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1302.html

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/imm_local/index.htm

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001731.html

I have no more arguments, these facts speak for themselves. If they are unclear, I cannot make them any clearer.

very nice work Molonlabe!

you're better at this than I am.still, here's a couple others..and these studies were done by people with "piled higher and deeper" degrees.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1468.cfm

I like Mars' idea...sheesh..can we send him to washington?

[BenS]

I always cringe when I read the pro-immigrant argument of "we cant send x million people home!!"

Maybe so, but we can start rounding them up today. Just look at how scared those in the article Tungsten posted were when just 20 were rounded up. They'll soon get the message that it is ILLEGAL to be here and they need to GTFO.

[The Rabbi]

I always cringe when I read the pro-immigrant argument of "we cant send x million people home!!"

Maybe so, but we can start rounding them up today. Just look at how scared those in the article Tungsten posted were when just 20 were rounded up. They'll soon get the message that it is ILLEGAL to be here and they need to GTFO.

Great idea. Round them up and....?

[Guest GlocKingTN]

Thanks guys! Its already getting better!!!!

[The Rabbi]

very nice work Molonlabe!

you're better at this than I am.still, here's a couple others..and these studies were done by people with "piled higher and deeper" degrees.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/wm1468.cfm

I like Mars' idea...sheesh..can we send him to washington?

And if any of those links were actually responsive to the issue they would be really valuable.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0410immigpay10.html

[Guest Len]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0410immigpay10.html

Amazing. And this from the BUSINESS section of a fairly conservative newspaper in a fairly conservative state. While the numbers are startling and worthy of addition to the overall economic debate herein, a couple of other items caught my eye as well:

1) The phrase "other-than-legal immigrant" was used to describe undocumented (or falsely documented) workers. So now we have "legal," "illegal," "undocumented," and "other-than legal." Isn't language wonderful?

2) Laws clamping down on employers who hire illegal immigrants (knowingly or otherwise) have helped create a cottage industry in "fake ID kits." For $150, you get a SSN, Green Card, etc. So that strategy is now useless.

So, to sum up the general gist of things:

1) We cant seal the borders (too expensive, wont work anyway)

2) We cant kick out all 12-20 million illegals (too expensive, too hard, would infringe on the rights of legals and US citizens, they would just come back, no way to tell who they really are, etc...)

3) The economics of the issue are cloudy at best. Illegals account for 10% of the current social security surplus, most pay taxes of various sorts, and virtually none will ever collect social security. They cost the govt. money in many ways, but contribute an unskilled labor force that many industries (including food) need in the current economic model.

4) This is not a political issue. Republicans and Democrats disagree with each other as well as the other side. Some in both parties have at least a tacit interest in keeping things the way they are.

5) They don't assimilate into our culture. But some do.

6) Millions of illegal immigrants have kids who are US citizens. If we kick the parents out, but let the kids stay, we have a foster kid disaster. If we kick the kids out with the parents, we are kicking out US citizens who every right to be here.

So I will again suggest the best way to deal with this issue is to do what we can to help the nations these people come from get their acts together so there is no reason to come here. Virtually none of these illegals would be here if there were not an economic reason for them to be here. I'm not sure dealing with global economic policy is any easier than the thorny issues we've raised in this thread, but it seems to me it MUST be part of any solution.

On a final note, I'm glad to see the personal attacks have mostly died down. I'd like to remind everyone to abide by the rules of the forum (see the sticky thread). Len's Moderator Motto: "Lively Debate Good. Ad Hominem Attacks Bad."

[towerclimber37]

And if any of those links were actually responsive to the issue they would be really valuable.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/0410immigpay10.html

Why rabbi, I guess those fellas with doctorates just don't understand the situation.

I realize that EDUARDO has absolutely NO bias when he writes these emotional stories..

and while those fellas that stand up on the border to help the border patrol out just don't have any reason to be there.

I swear..its just terrible.

well, here's MY emotional ploy...try this one on for size.

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

and here's the LEAST violent of the reported crimes.

Compared with many on this page who suffered violent crime, Barbara Vidlak got off easy with just identity theft. Still, you wouldn't want her problems. The rip-off of her Social Security number by an illegal immigrant has caused Barbara's phone to be turned off, loss of health insurance for her two kids as well as extra money out of pocket from the 34-year-old Omaha resident for credit checks and other expenses, such as lost time at work. She also had to act as a detective to track down the culprit who has filled her life with turmoil and stress. The reporting on this crime is notable for its relentless sympathy for the perpetrator, even when the damage to the victim is obvious for all to see. Rather than note how illegal immigration is not a victimless crime, reporter Cindy Gonzalez quotes an "immigrant rights" advocate who says that "In some ways, both women are victims."

ok...BOTH women are victims? horse pucky!

[Marswolf]

I like Mars' idea...sheesh..can we send him to washington?

Only if you can catch me to hogtie me first.

Thanks guys! Its already getting better!!!!

So much for that idea.

Folks, I continue to see continuing personal attacks. Some action has already been taken on this problem and I'm about to take some if this continues. Debate the issues without the personal attacks.

[BenS]

Great idea. Round them up and....?

Uhhmm uuhhh uhhmmm uhhmmm uhh how about send them home?

[The Rabbi]

Uhhmm uuhhh uhhmmm uhhmmm uhh how about send them home? :rolleyes:

Brilliant! And that will cost how much? And how long until they make their way back here?

News story not too long ago about a group if illegals being deported for the third time. To Nigeria.

Add to that the fact that no one has ever rounded up and deported that many people over such a wide area and you have a plan that is totally unworkable.

[The Rabbi]

Why rabbi, I guess those fellas with doctorates just don't understand the situation.

I realize that EDUARDO has absolutely NO bias when he writes these emotional stories..

Gosh. Making assumptions about someone because he has a particular name, thereby imputing certain ethnic characteristics.

And that's called? Anyone?

[Sidewinder]

While I too share deep concerns about the direction of our country and the apathy of most citizens, the immigration reform proposal does not seem to me to be another sign of impending doom. Read further down the story:

The proposed agreement would

allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first

.

They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.

A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.

This seems fairly reasonable to me, considering the complexity of the issue and the practical impossibility of sealing the borders AND kicking out 20-30 million illegals. Basically we are prioviding a fine for illegal entry and then giving the opportunity for these folks to become citizens -a task that will take up to 13 years. I'm not seeing any coddling here, or over-zealous environmentalism either.

I have often noticed that many people on the extremes (both right and left) of many political issues tend to radically and overly simplify complex issues for the sake of their philosophy. (I am not implying anyone on this board is doing this, I'm just making a general statement.) If any of the problems facing our nation were simple, they'd have been fixed long ago. We can lament how we let things become the way they are, we can bash out leaders for being useless or worse, but picking up after their messes is way more complex than it seems on the surface.

Food for thought, I hope.

Sir, with all due respect... you've been drinking the cool-aid too long! There are lots of complex issues alright. Let's cover a few of them.

1. These people "DO NOT" want to become Americans! Did you not see the marches in the streets, and our AMERICAN flag hung upsidedown below the Mexican flag?

2. I believe ENGLISH is our language. How many of them do you see even attempting to ASSIMILATE, and accepting even our language?

3. The argument that WE NEED them is bunk! If that were so, why would we hear all the news about jobs and unemployment? They are part (a big part) of the problem, not the solution.

4. They are bankrupting our hospitals, our welfare systems, our schools, our prison systems and our food stamp programs.

5. It's been estimated that for every one allowed in LEGALLY, they will bring their family, adding at least 5 more!

6. Other countries, that have a lot less wealth and defense power than us, control their border! Controlling that border is not because of a fence on the US/Mexican border... it's because of a brick wall in Washington DC. Corrupt politicians, to be exact. Some want the votes, others want the cheap labor...and the AMERICAN TAXPAYER gets screwed!

NO TO AMNESTY NOW OR EVER!!!

Edited March 23, 2010 by Sidewinder
Spelling...high school dropout with a Masters Degree!

[molonlabetn]

Woo hoo! Three year old thread back to life...

[Oh Shoot]

Sidewinder, I hate to see such passion tacked onto a 3 year old thread revival.

I'd say that "immigration reform" will be the next Obamanation, but you might want to start a new thread to address it.

- OS

[DWARREN123]

No matter how you slice it illegal means they are violators of laws which equals criminal.