"Immigration Reform"

[Guest Phantom6]

The way I see it, the Dems are pushing the old "come on in and make yourself at home agenda" in an effort to grow their party. The costs are going to be outrageous but as long as we keep drinking it just won't seem so bad.

[Marswolf]

That photo is a fake. If that was really Teddy Kennedy, the bottle would be empty.

[Guest Phantom6]

Yup!

[The Rabbi]

The new legislation is 100% BS.

Example. Once an illegal requests is visa the government will have 24 hrs to run a background check.(Hey thats quicker than a carry permit).

They will not be required to pay back taxes, but they will be qualified federal tax benefits.

This is 1986 all over again.

Oh and Rabbi your wrong about enforcement. From 1986 on we have gradually stopped any real enforcement in this country. Guess thats why we have 20 + illegals running around.

The way to end this crap is simple.

No free health care

no section 8 housing

no food stamps

and jail and fine the crap out of employers who give these people jobs.

If we have stopped enforcement then why has the budget for INS increased 5-fold?

As to illegals, they are ineligible for all the programs you mention, except emergency health service. And since most illegals coming here are 20-40 they are the group least likely to need medical care.

[molonlabetn]

If we have stopped enforcement then why has the budget for INS increased 5-fold?

As to illegals, they are ineligible for all the programs you mention, except emergency health service. And since most illegals coming here are 20-40 they are the group least likely to need medical care.

Just because the government spends money on something, doesn't mean that anything is really being done... trust me, I know.

Second... if illegals are ineligable for all but emergency care, then why is the Bedford County Health Dept paying for fertility treatment for a handful of Shelbyville 'undocumented' Mexican women, on the dime of state taxpayers, simply so they can breed here more conveniently?

Or, walk into the out-patient wing of any hospital in the southern parts of the border states (or Shelbyville, TN, for that matter)... Reality is not what you read in political propoganda. The hospitals are having to submit fraudulent claims to insurance companies for uninsured illegals, to minimize their losses... Numerous hospitals have gone bankrupt.

No, we're not ONLY paying for their emergency care. And they go to the hospital alot... where do you think they get their pain meds to sell on the street corner? "ohhh sen'or doktor, mayyy'a shewlder ees very much peyn, caan ju geev me somting to feel betar?"

"noooo nooo sen'or doktor, no eeenshoorance..."

[dkd83]

Rabbi,

Go to your local Health Department, DHS, or any other government office in this state. All signs have both English and Spanish on them. Why the bilingual signs at these "public service" offices if illegal, non-English speaking illegals are NOT eligible for these services.

I do not intend to or mean to offend you but you have no idea what you are talking about. All of your 'arguments' boil down to: the US spends too much money on the failed enforcement of immigration laws; therefore, the US should abolish or otherwise replace those laws with new laws that will cost the US even more money without adequately addressing, stopping, or controlling immigration so that we may revisit the problem again 10-15 years down the road.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi,

Go to your local Health Department, DHS, or any other government office in this state. All signs have both English and Spanish on them. Why the bilingual signs at these "public service" offices if illegal, non-English speaking illegals are NOT eligible for these services.

I do not intend to or mean to offend you but you have no idea what you are talking about. All of your 'arguments' boil down to: the US spends too much money on the failed enforcement of immigration laws; therefore, the US should abolish or otherwise replace those laws with new laws that will cost the US even more money without adequately addressing, stopping, or controlling immigration so that we may revisit the problem again 10-15 years down the road.

Gee, did it ever occur to you that there are many, millions, of legal Spanish-speaking immigrants here? Or do you think every Hispanic you see is a wetback?

No, you do not have any idea what you are talking about. Your arguments boil down to "let's shoot them all." That is not acceptable nor feasible.

And if INS has ceased enforcing the law, despite massive increases in their budget as I showed, what makes you think spending any more will get them to enforce it? What makes you think anything done will get them to enforce?

If Shelby County is paying for non-emergency care for illegals then someone needs to ask those in charge in Shelby Co why that is. Demand accountibility.

[molonlabetn]

Gee, did it ever occur to you that there are many, millions, of legal Spanish-speaking immigrants here? Or do you think every Hispanic you see is a wetback?

No, you do not have any idea what you are talking about. Your arguments boil down to "let's shoot them all." That is not acceptable nor feasible.

And if INS has ceased enforcing the law, despite massive increases in their budget as I showed, what makes you think spending any more will get them to enforce it? What makes you think anything done will get them to enforce?

If Shelby County is paying for non-emergency care for illegals then someone needs to ask those in charge in Shelby Co why that is. Demand accountability.

For one, my disgust has NOTHING to do with race. I don't care if these people are Mexican, Somalian, Chinese, Canadian, Czech, Iraqi, etc... If they are bumming their health care expenses off of the work paid by my taxes or inflated insurance premiums without intention to contribute, they are all worthless.

Here's what I want:

1. Remove the responsibility of hospitals and public health clinics to provide non-emergency treatment to those who cannot pay, have not paid relevant taxes, and have no health insurance. Private practices can work for free all they want, but if they choose to be charitable, don't send me the bill.

2. Enforce stiff penalties upon employers and banks who pay or lend money to illegals.

3. Delegate responsibility to all LE bodies to deport or exile criminals who are found to be in this country illegally. No more catch and release. Revoke all bail, and prohibit the posting of bond for any undocumented foreign national.

4. Arrest all drivers who do not hold a valid US drivers license, and see #3.

Foreign nationals who are in this country LEGALLY, have overwhelmingly taken the required steps to maintain that status, and integrate productively with the American society. The distinction is clear, I come across them every day, just about... And no, I don't see every Hispanic as a 'wet-back', as you say. I see the ones who come across the Rio Grand to become a parasite on the wealth of those who not only work, but bear the responsibility of those who do not, as 'wet-backs'. It's a relevant term which has been decried as racist due to improper useage. I prefer "Insurgent", myself... to keep panties un-wadded.

Either way, the solution is not to shoot them... What the heck would we do with 12-20 million bodies, then?

The Mexican (or their respective) governments must deal with them, or be dealt with by their people... It is wrong for us to be required to unwillingly carry this culture, when they refuse to stay and take responsibility for their country, themselves.

You and I owe them nothing, and it's about time that we refuse to be victimized.

[The Rabbi]

As I've pointed out, even illegals pay plenty in taxes.

But if the gov't hasnt enforced the laws already on the books (and which include virtually everything you've mentioned) then why would they start now?

As for deporting people, why won't they just sneak back in (which in fact they do anyway)?

[molonlabetn]

As I've pointed out, even illegals pay plenty in taxes.

Some is not plenty, if it were, their contributions would sustain the expenses which they incur. As it is, they don't even come close.

But, even if they DID pay in enough taxes to cover what they cost our society, their presence is no more legal or right.

But if the gov't hasnt enforced the laws already on the books (and which include virtually everything you've mentioned) then why would they start now?

There's one small detail, the ICE doesn't presently have the manpower to enforce these laws, which is why all LE agencies should be required (not just granted permission) to strictly enforce them. Border security agents have their hands tied, so even if we were more efficient at deportation, the influx is not being controlled.

As for deporting people, why won't they just sneak back in (which in fact they do anyway)?

Which is exactly why many of my points are geared toward making it undesireable to them, for them to be here, and nearly impossible to find a job or way to function.

Perhaps it's cold-hearted, but I'd rather them choose to not come, because they can't feed their families here or be profitable.

And don't even get me started on the free education and un-restricted voting which they take part in, without any accountability.

[Guest jackdog]

Ok so who said we should shoot illegals?

All were saying is that under no cicummstances should someone who violated our laws be given any kind of consideration, that someone going through the legal process not receive. This is an invasion of our country. Rabbi I really think you need to do some serious research as to what illegals are costing the american tax payer. I'm very concerned that if this bill ever becomes law then America as we know it will cease to exist. These people are illegal invaders of the United States of America. You might want to review the immigration laws of Mexico as well.

[shaftbass]

Rabbi, are you or some member of your family an illegal immigrant? I'm just trying to figure out why you are so pro illegal immigration.

I guess we do have things to enjoy about it though. Drunk Mexicans drinking, driving, and killing Americans. Trashy looking houses/properties with 8 cars out front and 30 people living inside. Increased insurance costs, among a few of the great benefits of having illegal aliens pouring into our area

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, are you or some member of your family an illegal immigrant? I'm just trying to figure out why you are so pro illegal immigration.

I guess we do have things to enjoy about it though. Drunk Mexicans drinking, driving, and killing Americans. Trashy looking houses/properties with 8 cars out front and 30 people living inside. Increased insurance costs, among a few of the great benefits of having illegal aliens pouring into our area

Ah, you guessed it. I'm actually an illegal Ecuadorian kitchen worker. Darn, I thought this would work, cabrone.

I am not "pro illegal immigration." I am for an immigration policy that meshes with reality. And the reality is that millions of people are coming here to find jobs. And there are employers here who need that kind of unskilled work done. So there is an economic reality behind this so-called problem. The solutions offered are generally worse than the problem as they all involve more government spending and more intrusion into privacy. That in addition to the fact that they won't work.

As for trashy looking houses, you've described not a few of the redneck neighborhoods I've been through. And I would bet lower class whites have killed more people drunk driving than Mexicans have.

Can you document any increased insurance costs associated with illegal immigration? No, probably not. A lot of the problem (and it has multiple causes) comes from welfare class types using expensive emergency room services for primary care. And those are born n bred Americans doing that.

[shaftbass]

Ah, you guessed it. I'm actually an illegal Ecuadorian kitchen worker. Darn, I thought this would work, cabrone.

I am not "pro illegal immigration." I am for an immigration policy that meshes with reality. And the reality is that millions of people are coming here to find jobs. And there are employers here who need that kind of unskilled work done. So there is an economic reality behind this so-called problem. The solutions offered are generally worse than the problem as they all involve more government spending and more intrusion into privacy. That in addition to the fact that they won't work.

As for trashy looking houses, you've described not a few of the redneck neighborhoods I've been through. And I would bet lower class whites have killed more people drunk driving than Mexicans have.

Can you document any increased insurance costs associated with illegal immigration? No, probably not. A lot of the problem (and it has multiple causes) comes from welfare class types using expensive emergency room services for primary care. And those are born n bred Americans doing that.

You still didn't answer the question. Is or was someone in your family in this country illegally?

True Americans kill Americans driving drunk every day. But why should that number be allowed to rise because of people who aren't even legal citizens of this country? It is just one of the many symptoms and problems of illegal immigration.

Trashy houses are all over the place, and a you mentioned a lot of them are white trash types, but rarely do you have groups cramming several families into one house and destroying nearby property values. Would you want to live in a neighborhood where there are 20 people in each house while the whole place looks like trash? My guess is probably not.

As far as your insurance argument goes, here's a document about why illegals are increasing health costs for Americans: http://www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf - It comes from The Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons. If you need more studies and articles to read up on, check the references section of that document. They are listed there, but I'm not going to search them out for you

Then again do you really need documented proof? Do you need a car to run over your foot to know it's going to hurt? Do you need to see a paper or study to know that wrecks during rush hour cause traffic jams? If so, I guess you lack the ability to understand cause and effect like the rest of us are able to understand.

[The Rabbi]

I told you, I'm an undocumented Ecuadorian working kitchen jobs when I am not slurping up free government programs meant for hardworking Americans like you, gringo.

Nice article. I'd suggest reading it because it doesnt provide any proof of the impact of illegals on overall health care costs. Actually doesnt address the issue at all.

But even if there were found to be some causal link, the solutions proposed, yet again, will not work.

[shaftbass]

I told you, I'm an undocumented Ecuadorian working kitchen jobs when I am not slurping up free government programs meant for hardworking Americans like you, gringo.

Nice article. I'd suggest reading it because it doesnt provide any proof of the impact of illegals on overall health care costs. Actually doesnt address the issue at all.

But even if there were found to be some causal link, the solutions proposed, yet again, will not work.

You dodged the question once again

What are you talking about? That article mentions plenty about the effect of illegals on health care costs:

High-technology EDs have degenerated into free medical

offices. Between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed

because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California

hospitals verge on closure.

There is more, but what that translates into is people who are actually paying the bills are now paying more because of the leeches who suck the medical services without paying. I don't know why you keep denying this point other than to keep the thread alive with useless arguments about something that everyone recognizes but you.

I'll counter your arguement. How are illegals NOT costing health care providers, and in turn insurance paying consumers more money? I want "documented proof" as you say.

I think we all agree that the solutions provided by lawmakers won't work. They have never worked. The only way to stop the problem is to fine and eventually imprison the employers who employ illegals, fine and eventually imprison landlords who rent to illegals, and to fine and eventually imprison those who help illegals who continue to break federal law.

[molonlabetn]

I told you, I'm an undocumented Ecuadorian working kitchen jobs when I am not slurping up free government programs meant for hardworking Americans like you, gringo.

Nice article. I'd suggest reading it because it doesnt provide any proof of the impact of illegals on overall health care costs. Actually doesnt address the issue at all.

But even if there were found to be some causal link, the solutions proposed, yet again, will not work.

From the 3rd paragraph:

What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and

closed some of America.s finest emergency medical facilities, and

caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals are closing

their doors. .Anchor babies. born to illegal aliens instantly qualify

as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in

Medicaid costs and stipends under Supplemental Security Income

and Disability Income.

Guess where all this money comes from...

Not Mexico, for sure. Even though a significant amount of American money goes to Mexico.

The article does not fully encapsulate the problem, but it does spell out in very specific terms how illegal immigration is very bad for Americans.

Is this not enough?

We're not talking JUST about losing money, this is costing LIVES.

This is not just about profit margins, jobs and the price of lettuce... this about preventing an EPIDEMIC.

[Marswolf]

Guys, the ad hominem and post hoc reasoning is beginning to make my stomach queasy.

This is a subject worth debating but we need to attack the subject and not the posting party. In addition just because something proceeds something else, it doesn't mean the first thing caused the second.

How about a few more statistics and analysis with fewer emotional rants.

[The Rabbi]

You dodged the question once again

What are you talking about? That article mentions plenty about the effect of illegals on health care costs:

There is more, but what that translates into is people who are actually paying the bills are now paying more because of the leeches who suck the medical services without paying. I don't know why you keep denying this point other than to keep the thread alive with useless arguments about something that everyone recognizes but you.

I'll counter your arguement. How are illegals NOT costing health care providers, and in turn insurance paying consumers more money? I want "documented proof" as you say.

I think we all agree that the solutions provided by lawmakers won't work. They have never worked. The only way to stop the problem is to fine and eventually imprison the employers who employ illegals, fine and eventually imprison landlords who rent to illegals, and to fine and eventually imprison those who help illegals who continue to break federal law.

Your argumentation skills are poor. You argue that illegals are driving up costs for everyone. I challenged that assertion and you cite some article that focuses on some very individual cases and gives anecdotal evidence. You have failed to prove your point.

If your point were valid you would be able to point to a study and say "health care premiums rose x amount due directly to increased costs imposed by illegals." But there is no such study I have seen. The health care market is enormous and even heavy use by at most 10 million people will not have a statistically meaningful effect.

Similarly people arguing that we will be swamped with illegals dont have a clue. There are estimated 10-15 million illegals in a country of 380 million people. Incidentally not all of them are Hispanics. As a percentage that is way lower than peak years of immigration in this country.

But your solution is to turn employers and landlords and who knows what else into enforcement arms of the government. As a landlord it is really not my job to verify someone's legal status. My job is to rent housing to people. If the gov't makes it otiose to rent houses I will get out of that business. If the gov't makes it burdensome to hire people then they will stop hiring them, legal or not.

[molonlabetn]

http://immigrationcounters.com/

http://sorrel.humboldt.edu/~economic/econ104/immigrat/

http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1302.html

http://www.sullivan-county.com/immigration/imm_local/index.htm

http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001731.html

I have no more arguments, these facts speak for themselves. If they are unclear, I cannot make them any clearer.

[Marswolf]

Some of this is getting to the point of trolling. You'll either debate the facts or you won't debate.

[Marswolf]

Here's my view.

The borders can not be made secure. It's a waste of money trying to close them down. People who wish to illegally enter the US will always find a way to do so.

The way to prevent the illegal immigration problem is to fine and jail employers who hire illegal workers. We need to set up a way for employers to easily check whether someone is legal. I'd set a limit of five years before any violation of this policy would result in massive fines and required jail time for non-compliant employers.

The 14th Amendment need to be amended to eliminate people born here to illegals from automatically being citizens. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." This was intended to make slaves citizens, not children of people who enter our country illegally.

All government supported benefits need to be denied to non-citizens.

After five years, if you are illegal and get caught you serve felony jail time and are deported after the sentence is served. Countries refusing to take back the illegals are suspended from any trade with the US until they do.

This situation came about because we needed people for jobs who are willing to work for a reasonable wage. In our welfare state the lazy don't have to work. I don't blame either the employers or the employed workers who took advantage of non-enforcement of our laws. The blame belongs with our government who did not ramp up enforcement and clamp down on employers to prevent this. If they had, these "undocumented" people would have entered legally and this problem would not exist.

Granting amnesty to the people who came here illegally is not acceptable. In the next five years they need to go home and come back legally. If they are here illegally after that time, we need to build enough jails to hold them until they serve their time and are deported.

You need to understand that if any of the proposed laws are enacted and enforced the end result will pretty much be the same twenty years down the line. It seems to me that the problem is the continuing unwillingness to enforce the laws. Until that changes, we will have a problem will people illegally entering the US in massive numbers.

[Guest jackdog]

Mars you are correct.

[The Rabbi]

Here's my view.

The borders can not be made secure. It's a waste of money trying to close them down. People who wish to illegally enter the US will always find a way to do so.

The way to prevent the illegal immigration problem is to fine and jail employers who hire illegal workers. We need to set up a way for employers to easily check whether someone is legal. I'd set a limit of five years before any violation of this policy would result in massive fines and required jail time for non-compliant employers.

Granting amnesty to the people who came here illegally is not acceptable. In the next five years they need to go home and come back legally. If they are here illegally after that time, we need to build enough jails to hold them until they serve their time and are deported.

Since you admit (correctly) that the borders cannot be secured, how do you guarantee that the people you deport will not sneak over again?

It is a conundrum. If you make immigration too difficult then people will do it illegally. If you make it too easy then you have the same problem we have now.

Thus I propose that it be very easy to get here and work but very difficult to get government benefits. If the jobs arent here then there is no incentive to stay and no penalty for going back home.

[Marswolf]

Few things in life come with a guarantee.

And I didn't "admit" anything. I said that in my first post.