"Immigration Reform"

[The Rabbi]

I hate to embarrass ya rabbi..but even though we use the FIAT dollar, we're still marked by an index thats measured by the amount of gold we hold. If you don't believe that..go to fort Knox and tell THEM that they're holding all that gold for antiquated reasons and they should give it all to you! see how long it takes a few guys with GUNS to drive up in an Suv and take you away..

as for the economics..I said that the dollar is continually being driven down by Illegal immigration...not that its falling solely because of it.

My economic education is right on the money.

Really? Please supply the name of this index that measures how much gold we hold and tell me its relevance to currency valuation.

Then tell me, in support of your original thesis, how this gold is being depleted by illegal aliens. Maybe they're the ones driving up and demanding gold at Ft Knox.

Please cite any evidence, any at all, that illegal immigration is responsible in any part whatsoever for the dollar's fall.

And while you're there, please explain why the dollar is almost exactly at the same value against the Euro as it was in Jan 2005, as you see here:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?D5=0&D4=1&ViewType=0&C6=2007&3=0&ShowChtBt=Refresh+Chart&Symbol=%2fEURUS&C8=2007&DateRangeForm=1&CE=0&C5=5&C7=5&ComparisonsForm=1&C9=0&DisplayForm=1&CP=0&PT=10

Or please explain why the dollar is currently at about the same level against the Yen as it was Jan 2003

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=JPY&amt=1&t=5y

Finally, I cannot account for all the hispanic food stores on Nolensville Rd here if all the illegals are simply growing their vegetables in spare bedrooms. I guess those are just front organizations.

[The Rabbi]

So then, we only do what is practical? What is cost effective? What is easy?

That seems to be your stance...

So why then, should we have any laws, any rules, any standards?

I'm sure we could use the cash "wasted" on enforcing laws to better effect somewhere else.

The US I want to live in isn't based on that. It based on principles. It's based on doing the right thing, and to hell with what the rest of the world may think.

But then again, what do I know? I'm stupid.

It's certainly easy to distort someone's argument into nonsense and then disagree with it.

I guess your approch would be: let's pick a problem and throw as much money as we possibly we can until the problem is solved. Iraqi insurgence? Let's draft every male between 18 and 35 and send them over there. That would solve that problem.

Border control? Let's draft every male between 18 and 50 and send them down there. That would solve that problem.

Oh, those things would wreck our economy and cause massive disruption to our social and political life? So what? It's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

[Guest Phantom6]

RN Medic wrote:

... Well, just for example, former Arkansas Governor and presidential candidate Huckabee was and is in the pockets of the Tyson company that produces poultry in northwest Arkansas.

Yeah, those darned former Arkansas governors seem to continue to get us into trouble. First its Whitewater and now White Chicken.

You are right. All those identifiable as PROMOTING illegal immigration as Tyson and other US Companies do should be hammered. Heavy fines to start with and possibly seizure of assets if offenses are repeated.

[towerclimber37]

Really? Please supply the name of this index that measures how much gold we hold and tell me its relevance to currency valuation.

Then tell me, in support of your original thesis, how this gold is being depleted by illegal aliens. Maybe they're the ones driving up and demanding gold at Ft Knox.

Please cite any evidence, any at all, that illegal immigration is responsible in any part whatsoever for the dollar's fall.

And while you're there, please explain why the dollar is almost exactly at the same value against the Euro as it was in Jan 2005, as you see here:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/charts/chartdl.aspx?D5=0&D4=1&ViewType=0&C6=2007&3=0&ShowChtBt=Refresh+Chart&Symbol=%2fEURUS&C8=2007&DateRangeForm=1&CE=0&C5=5&C7=5&ComparisonsForm=1&C9=0&DisplayForm=1&CP=0&PT=10

Or please explain why the dollar is currently at about the same level against the Yen as it was Jan 2003

http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/convert?from=USD&to=JPY&amt=1&t=5y

Finally, I cannot account for all the hispanic food stores on Nolensville Rd here if all the illegals are simply growing their vegetables in spare bedrooms. I guess those are just front organizations.

Rabbi, quite being antagonistic please and lets have a decent discussion.

this is a great board and here we DISCUSS and DEBATE. we do NOT insult.

while sarcasm is fun, when it starts becoming vitrolic then its time to tone it down.

now..to the discussion at hand.

1. what you are looking at is simply the short term model of the economy.

from this I gather that you've never gotten into K wave theory, statistical modeling, and advanced economic theory.

since its been awhile for me as well, I went back and did a little bit of study...just so that if I was wrong, I could be wrong in good conscience!

here's a quick primer for you

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_02/kennedy011602.html

what many people don't understand is that we may use a FIAT dollar..but GOLD is one of the primary drivers of the economy simply because it in itself is an index to wealth. Just so you won't misconstrue that statement, The price of gold is what the REST OF THE MARKET MEASURES ITSELF to.

when we speak of how much wealth that a country has...immediately on a scalar level, we look at the amount of gold that country has in reserve. this is a base measurement for the strength of their economy as well as the resources of that country.

since you were sarcastically taking my words out of context in your post to me in order to make me look as if I didn't know what I was talking about, I'll fix that and dumb it down so there can be no mistake.

I did NOT say that illegal aliens were depleting the gold. that was a misinterpretation on your part.

I said that they weaken the dollars' spending power abroad...

the more dollars OUTSIDE of the united states, the less power they have to buy. this is a simple and easy concept to understand.

while we still use a fiat dollar, the overall wealth of a nation,and the strength of its economy, is measured by how much gold that country holds as well as its GNP after its total debt. THE US IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY DOLLAR IT PRINTS. it has to back that with GOLD, when outside the US. GET IT?

Illegal immigrants send money OUTSIDE THE US! do you understand the pattern now?

as for my first post, you only decided to pick out the parts that you could attack me on and seek to make me look stupid.

how about address the WHOLE post without distorting anything..look at it rationally, and then debate...you'll get farther and perhaps you'll change my mind. Otherwise, its a waste of my time to debate anything with you,since there can be no actual communication when even one person refuses to listen, think and comment without venom. sarcasm I don't mind..but when it gets combative (I have the feeling you're about ready to call me a name) its a waste of time.

When you made your comment about the hispanic food stores, you were once again thinking locally....easy to do.

the events I described happened in Jacksonville, Fla. Why they were growing veggies in the other room was a constant source of wonderment for both myself and the apt. manager.

as for your remark about how the immigrants are killing our economy,

Low-skill immigrants pay little in taxes and receive high levels of government benefits and services. The National Academy of Sciences has estimated that each immigrant without a high school degree will cost U.S. taxpayers, on average, $89,000 over the course of his or her lifetime.[3] This is a net cost above the value of any taxes the immi*grant will pay and does not include the cost of educating the immigrant’s children, which U.S. taxpayers would also heavily subsidize.

theres alot more where that came from...and it doesn't matter WHAT nationality the immigrants are..it just happens that most of the illegal immigrants are of spanish decent...not my fault man!!!

I could give you the link, but until you figure it out that I'm not some racist, facist type..I doubt it would do any good.

are you willing to debate without the venom? if you are, perhaps we can both learn something!

[towerclimber37]

Iraqi insurgence? Let's draft every male between 18 and 35 and send them over there.

we don't need to do that, as all our military are Courageous VOLUNTEERS.

Border control? Let's draft every male between 18 and 50 and send them down there. That would solve that problem.

once again not neccessary, we have minutemen that would be more than happy to do the job with a little more support from congress.

Oh, those things would wreck our economy and cause massive disruption to our social and political life? So what? It's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

I don't think it would cause that much disruption, I doubt very seriously that it would destroy our economy beyond repair...the net result would be that unemployment would go DOWN, crime would go DOWN, drug traffic would go DOWN, the only political life that would be destroyed would be spineless liberals (no Len, I'm not talking about you..don't swat me with a newspaper:p) who talk rather than ACT and have no problem being buttsurfed by other countries because they think that America is a country to be ashamed of.

as Marswolf said, once we get control of the situation we could then begin a program to allow workers to come in and LEGALLY become americans.

[molonlabetn]

The social disruption argument is moot. We did just fine before the illegals were here in such numbers, quite the opposite actually... it is a fact that they do more to drain our economy than they have ever contributed (on the order of $30 billion a year, net). I'll pay an extra buck for a head of lettuce if it means that I'm not picking up the tab for the healthcare and government assistance to these insurgents, and my insurance premium isn't inflated because of the 20+ fatal car accidents per day which are caused by reckless, drunk, uninsured, hispanics. Not to mention all of the unscreened carriers of communicable diseases which pour over the border every day... tuberculosis is on the rise, my friends, and it ain't no coincidence!

Cut the undocumented labor employment, deport them and their breeders, incarcerate the violent offenders, and enforce the border.

[Marswolf]

Here's an interesting story from about a year ago:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/5/23/210820.shtml

Wednesday, May 24, 2006

WASHINGTON -- The Senate voted Tuesday to fine employers who hire illegal immigrants up to $20,000 for each unauthorized worker, providing teeth to a broad immigration bill before sending it to a final vote later this week.

Employers would have to check Social Security numbers and the immigration status of all new hires within 18 months after money is provided to the Homeland Security Department to expand the electronic system for screening workers.

"This is probably the single most important thing we can do in terms of reducing the inflow of undocumented workers, making sure we can enforce in a systematic way rules governing who gets hired," said Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.

The amendment passed 58-40. Opponents said the verification system would take years to implement and complained that workers deemed illegal could still hold onto jobs until their appeals are exhausted.

Employers who don't use the new computerized system could be fined $200 to $600. The system would include information from the Social Security Administration, the Internal Revenue Service and Homeland Security Department.

The $20,000 fines for hiring illegal immigrants once the new screening system is in place would be double the present level. Repeated violators could be sentenced to prison terms of up to three years.

The House passed a bill in December that would impose fines on employers of undocumented workers ranging from $5,000 to $40,000. But, unlike the Senate bill, the House measure would require employers to screen all employees - an estimated 140 million people - instead of only new hires.

Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., scheduled a test vote for Wednesday that sets up the bill's final passage, likely Thursday. Its most controversial provision would put more than half of the nation's 12 million illegal immigrants on a path toward citizenship without ever having to leave the U.S.

Critics call that amnesty and Republican leaders refused to even allow it to be considered in the bill the House passed in December.

Rep. Mike Pence, R-Ind., who heads a group of 100 conservatives in the House, said Tuesday he plans to offer a bill this week that would let employers rehire illegal workers now on their payrolls after they have returned home and applied for a new "W" visa to return.

"The solution is to set up a system that will encourage illegal workers to self-deport and come back legally as guest workers," said Pence, who earlier voted for the enforcement-only House bill.

The Senate defeated an effort Tuesday by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., that would have let all illegal immigrants remain, in contrast to the Senate compromise that would require more than one-third of them to leave.

[The Rabbi]

what many people don't understand is that we may use a FIAT dollar..but GOLD is one of the primary drivers of the economy simply because it in itself is an index to wealth. Just so you won't misconstrue that statement, The price of gold is what the REST OF THE MARKET MEASURES ITSELF to.

when we speak of how much wealth that a country has...immediately on a scalar level, we look at the amount of gold that country has in reserve. this is a base measurement for the strength of their economy as well as the resources of that country.

since you were sarcastically taking my words out of context in your post to me in order to make me look as if I didn't know what I was talking about, I'll fix that and dumb it down so there can be no mistake.

I did NOT say that illegal aliens were depleting the gold. that was a misinterpretation on your part.

I said that they weaken the dollars' spending power abroad...

the more dollars OUTSIDE of the united states, the less power they have to buy. this is a simple and easy concept to understand.

while we still use a fiat dollar, the overall wealth of a nation,and the strength of its economy, is measured by how much gold that country holds as well as its GNP after its total debt. THE US IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY DOLLAR IT PRINTS. it has to back that with GOLD, when outside the US. GET IT?

Illegal immigrants send money OUTSIDE THE US! do you understand the pattern now?

Right, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The wealth of a nation is not measured in gold. If that were the case Russia and South Africa would be economic powerhouses. They arent.

You persist in saying that the US has to back its dollar with gold. Get over it. It isnt true. It has not been true since 1974. U.S. stocks of gold are trivial compared with the value of the rest of the economy..

Illegal immigrants (and legal ones too btw) send money out of the country. Multinational corporations also send money out of the country. And in far greater amounts than illlegals could imagine. Are you proposing that multinationals are responsible for weakening the economy?

The data on whether illegals help or hurt the economy are unclear. There was an announcement not too long ago from a group of Nobel Prize winners to the effect that the overall impact was positive. Arthur Laffer has said that immigants (including illegals) are the lifeblood of the economy. I tend to think this is true. People say we cant absorb all the illegals. We already have. Unemployment here is well under 5%. If we deported all the illegals many industries would face unprecedented labor shortages. We are not talking about an extra dollar a head for lettuce. We are talking about prices being 20-30% higher across the board.

If you object to illegals taking advantage of social welfare programs, then lobby to reform those programs.

And I am still waiting to hear the name of this index you referenced.

[Guest Len]

Guys, getting just a tad off-topic here.

[Guest Ghostrider]

It's certainly easy to distort someone's argument into nonsense and then disagree with it.

I guess your approch would be: let's pick a problem and throw as much money as we possibly we can until the problem is solved. Iraqi insurgence? Let's draft every male between 18 and 35 and send them over there. That would solve that problem.

Border control? Let's draft every male between 18 and 50 and send them down there. That would solve that problem.

Oh, those things would wreck our economy and cause massive disruption to our social and political life? So what? It's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

No, my approach is to take problems and apply common sense and the constitution of the US to fix them.

Actually, I'm a little tired of your insults and name calling. Since it's obvious you're not going to stop, I'll defuse the situation by simply ignoring your posts.

If you'd like to see more of my ignorant, stupid, dumb and generally wasteful ideas, you can look at my website.

Otherwise, I'm over listening to your ideas as the immature name calling and personal attacks completely destroys any mature discussion of issues and makes your behavior appear childish, at best.

[The Rabbi]

Guys, getting just a tad off-topic here.

Didnt think so. Someone tried making the point that illegal immigrants damage the economy by sending money back home. I dont think thats a valid argument.

People opposed to the current bill have yet to propose a workable alternative. They seem stuck in the "law enforcement" mindset that has gotten us here to begin with. It is not a law enforcement problem, it is an economic problem. Arguably it isn't a problem at all.

[TGO David]

I don't see how you can argue that it isn't an enforcement problem when illegal aliens are, by definition, breaking Federal law by being here in the first place. Round them up, send them home! Blaming the conditions that brought them here is like arguing that a psychopathic murderer shouldn't face the death penalty because he was touched inappropriately by a priest as a child.

Crossing our borders illegally ought to be a "shoot on sight" offense. But that's just my narrow minded view on things.

[The Rabbi]

No, my approach is to take problems and apply common sense and the constitution of the US to fix them.

Actually, I'm a little tired of your insults and name calling. Since it's obvious you're not going to stop, I'll defuse the situation by simply ignoring your posts.

If you'd like to see more of my ignorant, stupid, dumb and generally wasteful ideas, you can look at my website.

Otherwise, I'm over listening to your ideas as the immature name calling and personal attacks completely destroys any mature discussion of issues and makes your behavior appear childish, at best.

The only person I see name calling here is you. My posts have been directed at your arguments.

I don't see where it is common sense to say we should round up 10-12 million people and send them elsewhere. I also dont see where that will actually solve any problems. I am unaware of a population movement of that scale in the name of law and order.

You are the one who claimed that you want to live in a country based on principles, counterposing that to my argument that we need to be realistic and aim for solutions that are achievable, both physically and politically.

You are also the one who keeps referring to himself as stupid. I certainly never called you that.

I also do not see where the US Constitution comes into play here. Please explain where there is any Constitutional issue here at all.

[The Rabbi]

I don't see how you can argue that it isn't an enforcement problem when illegal aliens are, by definition, breaking Federal law by being here in the first place. Round them up, send them home! Blaming the conditions that brought them here is like arguing that a psychopathic murderer shouldn't face the death penalty because he was touched inappropriately by a priest as a child.

Crossing our borders illegally ought to be a "shoot on sight" offense. But that's just my narrow minded view on things.

It isn;t an enforcement problem because enforcement hasn't worked, despite over 20 years of effort and billions of dollars. In 1993 the Border Patrol's budget was $419M. In the 2007 budget that figure is $7.8 Billion. Why does anyone think adding another $100M or $1B or $100B is going to suddenly make a difference?

But if it is their illegal act that bothers you, it is simple to change the law to allow them to come and go.

Looking at causes is a prelude to looking at solutions. And the solution is not militarizing our borders or imposing a police state. And both of those is where the anti-illegal crowd is headed.

[TGO David]

But if it is their illegal act that bothers you, it is simple to change the law to allow them to come and go.

Let's legalize marijuana and pedophilia while we're at it then. Because by your logic, making an illegal act "legal" would help me feel better about it.

Awesome!

Looking at causes is a prelude to looking at solutions. And the solution is not militarizing our borders or imposing a police state. And both of those is where the anti-illegal crowd is headed.

I think the anti-illegal crowd has it's head screwed on straight, then. Where's yours?

PS: I mean no offense. Mike said you're the guy with the rapier wit so I figured I'd play a little.

[The Rabbi]

Let's legalize marijuana and pedophilia while we're at it then. Because by your logic, making an illegal act "legal" would help me feel better about it.

Awesome!

I think the anti-illegal crowd has it's head screwed on straight, then. Where's yours?

As you well know there is a strong move to legalize marijuana on exactly the grounds I have laid out for immigration: spending increasingly large amounts of money on enforcement has resulted in a worse problem, not a better one.

It is obvious you think the anti crowd is right. But when I challenge people on some fairly basic ideas they get huffy about it and call themselves stupid. I wouldnt think anyone who consistently refers to himself as stupid has his head screwed on right.

So tell me why you think adding $X billion dollars more to enforcement is going to do anything. Tell me what you think the problem is in the first place.

[Guest Ghostrider]

...The cost of such an enterprise would make the current Iraq War look like small change. We would share the dubious distinction of fortifying our borders with the likes of the Soviet Union.

So it would be grossly costly in and of itself, it would create labor shortages here, drive up the cost of things, increase inflation, and expose us to the odium of the rest of the world.

If you want to call that fortitude, go right ahead. I'd call it plain dumb.

Oh, those things would wreck our economy and cause massive disruption to our social and political life? So what? It's the RIGHT THING TO DO.

No, you didn't call me stupid, actually you referred to someone else as stupid. Bolding in your quotes above is mine.

Spin it as you like, I'm out, you're on ignore.

[dkd83]

I have one question that any one may answer: Why is it that people who espouse ideas that at best appear extremely liberal are the first to bring up economics as a justification for their ideas?

The real "immigrant issue" boils down to how the US is going to implement wealth redistribution in the 21st century. Our previous attempts at this type of practice have failed miserably (Great Society). We must realize that if we support this kind of sweeping redistribution we become socialists at a minimum.

Open borders do not help our economy, as a whole. Cheap produce at the grocery store does justify the flouting of our republic's laws and sovereignty. The strains placed on our social services infrastructure alone far out weigh the gains made from cheap available labor.

Throwing money at our borders will not solve our problems. We must get control of the illegal immigrant situation not for the political reasons, nor the economic reasons, but for the protection of the US as an independent entity. Assimilation and personal responsibility are a necessity for the immigrants: learn English, pay taxes, minimize reliance on public assistance, and BECOME Americans.

[The Rabbi]

I have one question that any one may answer: Why is it that people who espouse ideas that at best appear extremely liberal are the first to bring up economics as a justification for their ideas?

The real "immigrant issue" boils down to how the US is going to implement wealth redistribution in the 21st century. Our previous attempts at this type of practice have failed miserably (Great Society). We must realize that if we support this kind of sweeping redistribution we become socialists at a minimum.

Open borders do not help our economy, as a whole. Cheap produce at the grocery store does justify the flouting of our republic's laws and sovereignty. The strains placed on our social services infrastructure alone far out weigh the gains made from cheap available labor.

Throwing money at our borders will not solve our problems. We must get control of the illegal immigrant situation not for the political reasons, nor the economic reasons, but for the protection of the US as an independent entity. Assimilation and personal responsibility are a necessity for the immigrants: learn English, pay taxes, minimize reliance on public assistance, and BECOME Americans.

No one who espouses "extremely liberal" ideas uses economics as a justification first. Liberalism is usually antithetical to economics, not complementary.

But this issue is about more than economics, although it is certainly about that. There is an issue of freedom here, a freedom to move freely and pursue opportunities regardless of borders. Freedom is not a liberal issue, it is the original conservative issue.

People bring up the overburdening of public services. It is a legitimate issue. But the solution is to revamp or eliminate those public services, not cut down on immigration.

I do not understand your reference to "wealth distribution." No one is proposing wealth distribution, unless it is from the unproductive to the productive through their own labor. And I hope you don't oppose that.

[towerclimber37]

Right, you have no idea what you're talking about.

The wealth of a nation is not measured in gold. If that were the case Russia and South Africa would be economic powerhouses. They arent.

You persist in saying that the US has to back its dollar with gold. Get over it. It isnt true. It has not been true since 1974. U.S. stocks of gold are trivial compared with the value of the rest of the economy..

Illegal immigrants (and legal ones too btw) send money out of the country. Multinational corporations also send money out of the country. And in far greater amounts than illlegals could imagine. Are you proposing that multinationals are responsible for weakening the economy?

The data on whether illegals help or hurt the economy are unclear. There was an announcement not too long ago from a group of Nobel Prize winners to the effect that the overall impact was positive. Arthur Laffer has said that immigants (including illegals) are the lifeblood of the economy. I tend to think this is true. People say we cant absorb all the illegals. We already have. Unemployment here is well under 5%. If we deported all the illegals many industries would face unprecedented labor shortages. We are not talking about an extra dollar a head for lettuce. We are talking about prices being 20-30% higher across the board.

If you object to illegals taking advantage of social welfare programs, then lobby to reform those programs.

And I am still waiting to hear the name of this index you referenced.

Once again, you pick apart my post and apply your immense sarcasm and wit to ONE sentence.

check this out...legally and economically, CORPORATIONS are pretty much considered countries unto themselves economically speaking.

they are taxed by OUR country.

since you wont let it go, I'll call that one yours..ok fine. gold is not the standard that drives all other markets.

you asked me to give proof that illegal immigrants have damaged our economy.

apparently I "don't know what I'm talking about"...because according to the heritage foundation, we pay right at 89,000 dollars per illegal immigrant...OVER AND ABOVE WHAT THEY EARN.

They send money home. they do NOT build homes here, they do NOT add appreciably to their local economy, except in non durable goods business. TELL ME HOW THIS HELPS OUR SOCIETY? Since you say it doesn't hurt it, how about you tell me how it helps our communities and our economy?

Illegal immigrants add quite appreciably to crime here. and you want to make them a citizen?

You say that the immigration laws are not working. I say that they're not vigorously enforced. you can't say that isn't true because if it weren't there wouldn't be citizens like the minutemen.

So, you think we should also legalize marijuana huh?

that doesn't suprise me.

I'm amazed that you even advocate carrying firearms for personal protection! your arguements have no common sense attached to them and less logic. "lets just ignore the laws that don't work and hey...since these people broke those laws while they were in place..lets just pardon them"

This sort of socialist thinking is the reason that will destroy us as a country. You make your assumptions based on the idea that we can't get a handle on illegal immigration. Your solutions to the problems we face are based on the idea that we are a failure as a country...

I just want to know, what sort of childhood did YOU have? You operate in a world where you dispair. thats pretty sad man.

then again, since you advocate the legalization of pot, I can understand why you fail often. perhaps you should take a good old fashioned look at your life and figure out if you're living in Lithuania still or if you're ameriCAN.

its ok you can say it.."I'm an AmeriCAN, I can win if I want to".

Its just my opinion, but I think Samuel Adams was talking to you and people JUST LIKE you when he made the quote in my tagline. the only problem is that these days, your ilk are too lazy to move, too inane to build your own country and seem to think that if you shout loud enough, and insult enough people, you can get your own way regardless of right and wrong and when you fail, you're happy to blame someone else. To that I will happily reply "go to hell".

throw your tantrums elsewhere and let the grownups at this table continue their discussion.

[The Rabbi]

It is difficult to sort out all the arguments in this post.

Thank you for admitting you were mistaken that illegals devalue the dollar by sending money home. That's a start anyway.

Corporations are not "countries unto themselves" in any way shape or form. Corporations are considered, here in the US, like private individuals. They are taxed here and their subsidiaries are taxed abroad. They do not raise armies, issue currency, tax people, or engage in any of the functions of a state. Sorry.

Do you have a link to the Heritage study that shows this. I'd be interested how they put that number together.

Immigrants, legal and illegal, generally take jobs that virtually everyone else is overqualified for. If they did not, you would have large underemployment, where overqualified people were picking lettuce etc. That is inherently wasteful.

Further, they tend to live somewhere and pay rent. That rent in turn pays property taxes. They buy things and pay tax on the purchases. Since illegals frequently use "borrowed" social security numbers, all the money they have deducted from paychecks for social security will never get claimed. Do they use more in social services than they provide in taxes and other kinds of consumption? I don't know. I dont think there is consensus on the issue.

Moreover, many industries would be in serious trouble if they had to pay higher wages. It is not that lettuce would cost 50 cents more. It is that lettuce would be grown in Mexico and shipped here instead of being grown here altogether. Already much of the produce you see is grown in So.America because labor costs are low enough that it makes sense just to ship here instead of growing here. That costs us jobs.

I never said we should legalize marijuana. I said there was a strong body of opinion that held we should for all the same reasons.

How individual freedom and measures to support that could possibly be considered "socialist" is beyond me. You'll have to explain that one in some detail. Unless "socialist" means "anything I consider bad."

[towerclimber37]

They buy things and pay tax on the purchases. Since illegals frequently use "borrowed" social security numbers, all the money they have deducted from paychecks for social security will never get claimed. "

these are NOT the people we want as citizens! saying "they didn't mean it" doesn't make a crime less than a crime!

so now, you have 12 MILLION people willing to break 4 laws that you want to make citizens.

now these laws are not minor laws...its not like you're getting a speeding ticket.

on top of that, when they get one of their social security cards, they break at least ONE more law..a federal law and commit Identity theft.

but hey..whats one more law?

and YOU advocate making them a citizen.

nice

[The Rabbi]

If you want them not to break laws, make it possible for them to come here and work without having to. As it is, the process for getting a green card takes years. Who wants to wait years to be able to come here and work? That doesnt serve any purpose.

[TGO David]

If you want them not to break laws, make it possible for them to come here and work without having to. As it is, the process for getting a green card takes years. Who wants to wait years to be able to come here and work? That doesnt serve any purpose.

Ever heard the adage that says "if it's worth doing, it is worth doing right" ? Right hasn't always been synonymous with quick and easy.

[TGO David]

As you well know there is a strong move to legalize marijuana on exactly the grounds I have laid out for immigration: spending increasingly large amounts of money on enforcement has resulted in a worse problem, not a better one.

Press Announcement From The U.S. Attorney General

For years, the United States Government has held the position that pedophilia is an abhorrent crime against children deserving the utmost of punishment against those whom engage in such despicable acts. We have waged this war with mixed results, catching and imprisoning far fewer pedophiles than have slipped through the nets.

Countless millions of dollars have been spent in our war against crimes on children, the toll of which is starting to weigh heavily upon the government and taxpayers alike. Regretfully we must admit that our best efforts have not been good enough and that the time has come to admit defeat.

Therefore, we are instead embracing those who were previously law breakers and through a sweeping change in legislation, are proud to state that these felons are now upstanding members of society, engaging in sexual congress with minor children under the full blessing of the United States government. Effective today, pedophilia is no longer a crime but a legitimate physical expression of love between an adult and a minor.

Parents, we appreciate your cooperation in facilitating this ground breaking change. Just think of the common good and the millions of taxpayer dollars that you are saving!