"Immigration Reform"

[Guest Ghostrider]

Does this make anyone (besides me) want to vomit?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070517/ap_on_go_co/immigration_congress_35

Key senators in both parties and the White House announced agreement Thursday on an immigration overhaul that would grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S.

[2000silverz28]

Why don't we just declare everybody in the world a citizen of the United States and be done with it?

[Guest DEIMOS]

This is sickening and it saddens me. I am not at all surprised though. I am waiting for the camels back to break, but wondering if it ever will. It seems we are a free country only in name.

I pray that things will turn around, but how do we affect this change? We write our representitives, but so many of them either ignore us, or break their word. Who will draw a line in the sand? Who will stand behind that line and say 'you shall not pass'? How do we drag America the beautiful from the cesspool of socialism and terminal apathy and set her back on the shining path of freedom?

[dkd83]

I likewise am disgusted by the "immigration reforms" planned by the Congress and our President. The confluence of unfettered illegal immigration and rabid socialism/environmentalism has proven most fortuitous for those that seek the decline of our country.

I am of the opinion that without a strong nationalist outcry from the citizens of the United States we will witness an unalterable decline of US sovereignty within the next few generations. I can only echo DEIMOS' questions and lament the complete lack of effective leadership in the US.

[Guest Len]

While I too share deep concerns about the direction of our country and the apathy of most citizens, the immigration reform proposal does not seem to me to be another sign of impending doom. Read further down the story:

The proposed agreement would

allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first

.

They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.

A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.

This seems fairly reasonable to me, considering the complexity of the issue and the practical impossibility of sealing the borders AND kicking out 20-30 million illegals. Basically we are prioviding a fine for illegal entry and then giving the opportunity for these folks to become citizens -a task that will take up to 13 years. I'm not seeing any coddling here, or over-zealous environmentalism either.

I have often noticed that many people on the extremes (both right and left) of many political issues tend to radically and overly simplify complex issues for the sake of their philosophy. (I am not implying anyone on this board is doing this, I'm just making a general statement.) If any of the problems facing our nation were simple, they'd have been fixed long ago. We can lament how we let things become the way they are, we can bash out leaders for being useless or worse, but picking up after their messes is way more complex than it seems on the surface.

Food for thought, I hope.

[Guest Shep]

This is so stupid, why did I vote for Bush?

Run Fred, Run Fred, RUN!!!!!!

[SkWaShDeM]

This is so stupid, why did I vote for Bush?

Run Fred, Run Fred, RUN!!!!!!

Probably the same reason most of the people who voted for him did. He was the lesser of two evils that we got to choose between. I know that's the only reason I voted for him.

[TGO David]

And in other news....

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070518/NEWS03/705180421/-1/RSS05

Maury County raid chills immigrant community

Arrests could cause Hispanics to avoid police

By CLAY CAREY,

BRAD SCHRADE

and JANELL ROSS

Staff Writers

COLUMBIA, Tenn. — Two dozen illegal immigrants were arrested and processed for deportation this week after happening upon a mobile home where police and federal agents were investigating a case, residents of a local trailer park said Thursday.

The arrests and apparently imminent deportation of 23 males and one female in Maury County sent shockwaves through the Midstate's Hispanic community, where some feared the raid could create a rift between Hispanics and law enforcement that would be very difficult to repair.

"These types of actions send ripples of fear throughout a community," said Jessica Baba, public awareness coordinator with the Tennessee Immigrant and Refugee Rights Coalition.

"Fear causes people to stop reporting crimes and talking to police. That is a threat to public safety," Baba said. "Going after one person is one thing. We're not going to dispute that. Going after an entire community is entirely different."

Others, like Theresa Harmon, co-founder of Tennesseans for Responsible Immigration Policies, think the arrests are a step in the right direction.

"If (police) have a reasonable suspicion that I'm driving drunk, they're going to pull me over to find out. The same thing usually applies across the board to everything except illegal aliens," Harmon said.

"That's got to stop. … As long as our law enforcement agencies look the other way, that makes us a sanctuary" for illegal immigrants, Harmon said.

Many law enforcement agencies, like the Metro Police Department, have said their officers will not take part in immigration enforcement, fearing that such actions could lead immigrants to be uncooperative with police. Several attempts to call Maury County Sheriff's Department officials and federal authorities on Thursday were unsuccessful.

Details of arrests hazy

Two days after the raid, details of the arrests are hazy.

Sheriff's deputies and federal immigration agents have said they went to the Countryside Mobile Village Tuesday morning in search of a teenage boy and his mother. Police learned the two were in the United States illegally after the boy brought a gun to school.

While they were there, they took 22 more illegal Mexican immigrants into custody.

"I couldn't believe what I was seeing. They (immigration agents and officers) were everywhere," said Antonio Gonzalez, 20, a neighbor and acquaintance of several of the people arrested.

Angela Leyva, sister-in-law and aunt of two of the arrestees and a legal U.S. citizen, said the family's trailer had been surrounded by patrol cars.

Two immigration officials entered the house. People who lived nearby gathered to watch, Leyva said. Then, immigration officials began asking people in the crowd about their immigration status. Some people were followed back to their trailers, asked to produce documents, and then arrested when they could not, Leyva said.

Barbara Haskins said her fiancé, Luis Enrique Sanchez Castro, told her a similar story Tuesday night when she found him locked in the Maury County Jail. Sanchez Castro pulled up in front of a trailer a few doors down from the Leyvas' Tuesday morning. He was there to pick up a co-worker.

Something about the blue Ford must have caught law enforcement's attention. Officers headed toward the car. One occupant hopped out and ran. But Sanchez and three co-workers were arrested.

Sheriff Enoch George and his staff were unavailable to discuss the raid Thursday, but on Wednesday Capt. Nathan Johns said carloads of illegal immigrants approached them.

Angela Leyva said she heard from her nephew — the boy who brought the gun to school — on Wednesday. He said he was in a holding facility, he thought in New Jersey. Last the family heard from her sister-in-law, she was in a holding facility in Franklin, expecting to go to Texas for a hearing before being deported to Mexico.

"For (authorities) to say they can't tell us anything — that's not right," Leyva said. "(Where) they're going or how we can find out what's happening to them; they're not letting us know anything."

'Right to remain silent'

People crossing border checkpoints can be searched, questioned or detained even if there's no obvious proof that they're entering illegally, said Jerry Gonzalez, a Nashville civil rights attorney.

Once they're here, a law enforcement officer has the authority to walk up and ask them if they're here illegally — but that doesn't always mean they'll be arrested.

If an immigrant doesn't make that admission, but an officer has an "objectively reasonable suspicion" that the immigrant is a criminal, the officer can detain him for questioning, Gonzalez said.

That detention is only supposed to last as long as it takes to figure out if the crime was committed. "We're talking 20 minutes," he said.

But most immigrants who are deported convict themselves under police questioning, Gonzalez said.

"Most illegal aliens are determined to be illegal because an (immigration) agent asks them 'are you illegal' and they say 'oh, you got me. I'm illegal.' And then they take them. Generally, everybody has the right to remain silent. … Nobody can compel them to speak."

Though some police officers will take it upon themselves to question Hispanics about their immigration status, "most enlightened law enforcement agencies" frown on the practice, said Elliott Ozment, a Nashville attorney who specializes in immigration issues.

"It could expose that law enforcement agency to very serious charges of discrimination," he said.

None of that mattered much to those left behind at the Countryside Mobile Village. Leyva said she had to explain to her daughters where their cousin and their aunt had gone.

"I told them they came and got them and took them back to Mexico," Leyva said, explaining that her 6-year-old was particularly confused. "She wanted to know why. How do you explain that to a kid?"

I'm frankly so pissed off about so many things in this article that I can't begin to properly articulate my thoughts. Could the Tennessean possibly paint a more anti-law, pro-illegal activity slant on the issue of illegal aliens being arrested?!?

WTF is this country coming to?!?!?

[Donnie]

Interesting.........

Are you Broadside or Tungsten????

Split personalities maybe?

edit to say, I just read the name change thread, my bad.

[Guest Ghostrider]

While I too share deep concerns about the direction of our country and the apathy of most citizens, the immigration reform proposal does not seem to me to be another sign of impending doom. Read further down the story:

The proposed agreement would

allow illegal immigrants to come forward and obtain a "Z visa" and — after paying fees and a $5,000 fine — ultimately get on track for permanent residency, which could take between eight and 13 years. Heads of household would have to return to their home countries first

.

They could come forward right away to claim a probationary card that would let them live and work legally in the U.S., but could not begin the path to permanent residency or citizenship until border security improvements and the high-tech worker identification program were completed.

A new temporary guest worker program would also have to wait until those so-called "triggers" had been activated.

This seems fairly reasonable to me, considering the complexity of the issue and the practical impossibility of sealing the borders AND kicking out 20-30 million illegals. Basically we are prioviding a fine for illegal entry and then giving the opportunity for these folks to become citizens -a task that will take up to 13 years. I'm not seeing any coddling here, or over-zealous environmentalism either.

I have often noticed that many people on the extremes (both right and left) of many political issues tend to radically and overly simplify complex issues for the sake of their philosophy. (I am not implying anyone on this board is doing this, I'm just making a general statement.) If any of the problems facing our nation were simple, they'd have been fixed long ago. We can lament how we let things become the way they are, we can bash out leaders for being useless or worse, but picking up after their messes is way more complex than it seems on the surface.

Food for thought, I hope.

I disagree - I hear a lot of people saying that we just can't kick out all of these millions of illegals. Why not?

No, not in a day, not in a week, but if we seal the borders, punish (vigorously) all of the people who employ them, and not give them free access to healthcare and other benefits, what's to stop us from kicking out criminals? (Of course, after confinement at hard labor for a number of years - crime requires punishment). BTW, this is my version of carrot and stick, remove the carrot and use the stick.

Whenever someone has contact with an authority, it should just be another routine question to prove your citizenship. I carry my passport about 80% of the time now, and would happily put it with my DL in my wallet if they would make it a card and laminate it.

If we had 20 million (or whatever) drunk drivers here, they'd all be punished, why not other criminals?

[Guest Len]

Its a matter of logistics.

1) We don't know who these people are in most cases. Who do we kick out? Asking everyone to "prove" they are citizens is basically asking the innocent to prove they are innocent. That's not democracy in my book. That's Nazi Germany or the USSR. I certainly wouldn't mind carrying around a wallet-sized version of my passport, but most Americans don't have one. Even getting a system in place to track citizens would cost billions and take decades. Meanwhile, many of these people have been here for decades, are part of the economy, pay their taxes, have raised families of US citizens, etc.

2) There are 20-30 million illegal immigrants here today, with more coming in every day. For comparison, the population of Tennessee is about 6 million. How are we going to round up a group of people 4-5 times the size of the population in this state, spread out over the whole nation? I think if we add up all military (active duty, reserves, guard) and all LEOs in this country we have around 5 million or so. Meanwhile, we are in two wars abroad, a drug war at home, a crime war in our neighborhoods, yada. It would take at least a generation to make this happen, at a HUGE cost that would make Iraq look like a bargain.

3) Where are we going to get the money? This would cost billions and billions to do. We have a huge deficit as it is, are spending mega-bucks in Iraq and other places, etc. I would prefer not to have my taxes raised to pay for generations of inept govt. policy.

4) We'd have to seal the borders first, to stop the in-flow and make sure the ones we kick out don't come back. Counting coastlines, US land borders with Canada (two) and Mexico (one), there are literally tens of thousands of miles of US border (not even counting various islands, etc.) The sealing of the borders would take forever, cost even more billions and would have to be done BEFORE any "kick them out" policy begins.

5) None of this factors in the positive economic impact of 30 million people buying stuff, doing jobs many of us would rather not do, etc. Sure there is a HUGE negative economic impact from illegal aliens, but also a HUGE positive economic impact. The overall economic impact is unknown, therefore the impact of eliminating 20-30 million people from the US economy is unknown and would have consequences.

And this is just scratching the surface.

Does all this make me "pro-illegal immigration" and de-facto "pro-criminal?" Certainly not. If someone is here illegally, and they are found out, they should be prosecuted. But from a purely apolitical, pragmatic perspective, it is virtually impossible to kick em all out, and doing so would probably wreck havoc on our economy, our military and our law enforcement personnel.

We have absorbed huge immigration influxes before, we can do it again.

Meanwhile, if we want to deal with the CAUSES of the problem in the first place, instead of just dealing with symptoms as they occur, let's help our fellow nations get their s@&t together so their own citizens will want to stay home and not come here. Of course if our current leaders at all levels keep up their remarkable record of pure stupidty, it wont be long before no one will WANT to come here anymore, and those of us here will want to leave. I suppose what comes around, goes around.

[molonlabetn]

Len makes several good points... I agree the most with the need for steps to be taken which reduce the benefit and increase the risk of coming into this country illegally. Let's make them not want to come here because no-one can afford to hire them, and they can't drive or show themselves in public without being arrested and deported. There also needs to be an initiative to promote the idea of the Mexican people taking back their own government... so instead of them coming here to take our country, they can model their own after ours, and enjoy their freedom and prosperity with dignity. Illegal Insurgents currently have no dignity... I can't believe that doesn't bother them.

People who only thrive to take advantage of the people around them, and bring them down, deserve no honorable place in ANY society, much less one in which they are not a native.

Let's make them not want to come here... through a combination of incentives to stay in their country, and risks for entering ours.

[dkd83]

The problem with immigration that has arisen in the late 20th and now 21st is one of assimilation. In the 1920s Mexican nationals crossed the border on a daily basis to work jobs within the US. Many, returned home every evening with some others remaining for a week or so at a time before returning. Now they choose to remain as illegal immigrants. This was not always the case.

With the advent of the Great Depression and a growing belief that Eugenics represented valid science thew US decided to severely curtail cross-border comerce for reasons ranging from economic protectionism (a response to the Depression) and the belief that Mexicans represented an inferior race (Eugenics). The latter gave rise to increasing siscrimination toward Mexican-Americans who became US citizens with the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 at the conclusion of the Mexican War. This treaty basically "gave" the US our entire South West.

So, we are definitely in a tough position and we have look back 100-150 years to estsablish the root causes. In my opinion the problem is reminiscent of the influx of the Gothic peoples into the eastern Roman Empire during the late 4th century AD.

Initially the Goth's received permission to settle en masse within the empire but through exploitation by Roman citizens, bureaucrats, and a lack of assimilation on the part of the Goths increasing animosity grew between the groups culminating in a crushing defeat for the Romans at the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378. The Roman Empire lasted another 100 years but this was the beginning of the end.

If we fail to control border security and assimilate foreign nationals I foresee the failure of our great republic.

[shaftbass]

[Mr. Garrison] Can we get rid of all the Mexicans? [/Mr. Garrison]

[The Rabbi]

It's an economic problem: limited supply of labor here at cost-effective rates. So it has an economic solution. One solution is to depress the economy here and create massive unemployment. That will stop people trying to come here since there is nothing to come for. There is already less illegal immigration since construction jobs have been declining.

The other solution is to create a means where people can come here and work, at least temporarily. If work dries up, they go back home. Or to Canada. Or whereever they can find work.

I know which solution I'd go for.

[Marswolf]

This is a pretty complex situation. Happened to see a program last night on migrant workers in North Carolina. Pretty balanced show. Usual liberal whining about mistreatment of the poor migrants, but also a realistic look at their function in North Carolina agricultural economics.

Basically, even at high (for this kind of work) hourly rates, the veggie farmers can't hire enough legal workers. About 65% of the pickers are not just Mexicans but illegal. So, the illegals work for minimum wage in really lousy conditions. State law requires one refrigerator for every 27 workers. No mattresses on the beds are required. One crapper for every 25 workers generally just in an open room with no privacy. Often those are outhouses too. Their conditions here are probably no worse than in Mexico, but no American would work under those conditions. About 10% of the 1600 NC farmers using migrant labor have decent places for the migrants to live. The other 90%.... Well...there only four labor inspectors to see that the law is being followed.

If we could somehow toss out all the illegal folks today, our veggie prices would skyrocket and shortages would look like the old days of the Soviet Union. I don't want to stand in line for an hour to buy two half-rotten onions. The Mexicans need us to provide decent jobs. We need them to keep our standard of living. It's a symbiotic relationship.

I don't like the current proposal, but it's not as far off the mark as neocons are saying.

I'd rather not have the amnesty but would clamp down in phases on those hiring illegal aliens over say 10 years. That way, the workers could apply and come back in legally, while we still get strawberries and lettuce to eat. But really, the end result twenty years down the line will be the same as under this plan.

BTW, building a border fence is a pipe dream. Total waste of huge amounts of tax money. There are other ways to get here than walking across the border from Mexico. There is no "sealing the borders." Get over it....

[The Rabbi]

BTW, building a border fence is a pipe dream. Total waste of huge amounts of tax money. There are other ways to get here than walking across the border from Mexico. There is no "sealing the borders." Get over it....

Eggsactly. There was a news item about a bunch of Nigerians who were here illegally, and had already been deported 3 times already. It is too easy to get here somehow.

China can't control its border with N.Korea, despite it being much smaller and teh Chinese less sensitive to human rights than we are.

[Guest Ghostrider]

Obviously I'm thought to be fairly stupid.

However, it can be done. IMO that's the primary function of the National Guard.

Truth is that it appears that we as a society don't have the intestinal fortitude to PROTECT AND DEFEND our borders.

'nuff said.

[The Rabbi]

Obviously I'm thought to be fairly stupid.

However, it can be done. IMO that's the primary function of the National Guard.

Truth is that it appears that we as a society don't have the intestinal fortitude to PROTECT AND DEFEND our borders.

'nuff said.

I suppose theoretically we could build fences and have constant monitoring (weren't there just tunnels discovered underneath the border crossings, used by drug smugglers?). It is a 2000 mile border across very uninhabited and inhospitable land. We would need to mine parts of it. We would need to draft or otherwise encourage people to join the guard or the army, since much of the guard is currently being sent to the middle east.

The cost of such an enterprise would make the current Iraq War look like small change. We would share the dubious distinction of fortifying our borders with the likes of the Soviet Union.

So it would be grossly costly in and of itself, it would create labor shortages here, drive up the cost of things, increase inflation, and expose us to the odium of the rest of the world.

If you want to call that fortitude, go right ahead. I'd call it plain dumb.

[towerclimber37]

I've got a solution.

ANNEX mexico. its either that or put them to the sword when they cross the border.

look. the Dollar has been continually driven down by illegal immigration. every dollar thats printed by the treasury dept, has to be backed by the gold reserves.

When illegal immigrants siphon off that money to send to mexico they do a couple of things to us.

1. they weaken the overall standing of the dollar in the world financial market.

2. this money is NOT put back into the local economies so the local economy doesn't prosper by the influx of work.

3. because they've broken 4 laws at least to get here, they don't care about breaking more laws to stay and do what they want...so crime rate goes up.

4. They offer a venue for other countries to enter illegally into the U.S.

we don't have to watch the borders. we don't have to mine or build fences.

1st time you're caught, deportation.

2nd time you're caught, 1 year in jail at hard labor (this will help offset the cost of feeding, housing and administrative costs.)

3rd time- you're out...euthanasia by lead injection.

yes that sounds harsh...but look at the realities.

mexico isn't poor because it has no resources. It isn't poor because we "evil" americans have dominated them. It isn't poor because of trade embargoes or anything else outside of its own soil.

its poor because its citizens mismanage the government, and have no sense when it comes to economics..their government is corrupt, drugs run rampant and the government cant even control that.

Now, we're expected to let a MINIMUM of 12 MILLION of them become citizensand exercise voting rights?? not to mention the run on the border when the rest of mexico finds out....

I say no.

I don't blame them for running to america...but its a little like the califorians...who have run their state 40 billion dollars into debt..and then moving to texas, oregon or arizona.

I am NOT advocating a shoot on sight scenario..but there are tough questions that need to be dealt with.

fences are out of the question, laws apparently don't work as lawmakers in washington are ignoring even those. for those who want to live here as americans, I say work for it...like we work for the things we really want.

that way, you'll cherish it and have something to be proud of!

many people are worried about the cost of tomatoes and lettuce when the very social fabric of america is being ripped apart.

I'd be willing to pay the extra cost for a tomato..or else grow one in my own back yard..what I WILL not do is sing the national anthem in spanish or any OTHER language. I will not be sit politely by and watch america be mobbed and mugged.

I WILL vote. I will let my congress know how I feel.

after that, if they don't do the job, I'll cast my vote for a new congress.

hopefully, others will too.

the borders CAN be secured...by ordinary citizens. we just have to have the power to do it.

there are even willing participants...note the minutemen.

I realize I sound like a crackpot, but unless someone comes up with an inventive way to stop it, we're going to have to use old fashioned methods.

I like Mars' proposal..everyone wins that way! thats what we really want in the end.

a good life for those who want to come to america to be a part of it, justice for the lawbreakers and economic security for our nation.

but don't expect me to like a bunch of illegal immigrants running around waving a mexican flag going na na nah naaaa naaahh and thumbing thier noses at our way of life.

[The Rabbi]

I've got a solution.

the Dollar has been continually driven down by illegal immigration. every dollar thats printed by the treasury dept, has to be backed by the gold reserves.

When illegal immigrants siphon off that money to send to mexico they do a couple of things to us.

1. they weaken the overall standing of the dollar in the world financial market.

2. this money is NOT put back into the local economies so the local economy doesn't prosper by the influx of work.

3. because they've broken 4 laws at least to get here, they don't care about breaking more laws to stay and do what they want...so crime rate goes up.

4. They offer a venue for other countries to enter illegally into the U.S.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I strongly suspect your knowledge of economics is lacking.

The dollar is not falling because of illegal immigration. It is falling for complex reasons, among them the increase in inflation in the US.

The US stopped backing its dollar with gold in 1972, and stopped backing it for private individuals in 1934.

Illegals do not send every penny they earn to Mexico. They have to live here too. Further money sent back home means those receiving it are not moving here since they have no need to.

All immigrants send money home. My great-grandfather regularly sent money to his father back in Lithuania.

Illegals enter in every which way possible. That includes Canada. That includes the airports here as well. Try mining the airports.

I would state as a rule that any solution that involves ending human life is not a viable solution in any way at all.

[Guest Ghostrider]

So then, we only do what is practical? What is cost effective? What is easy?

That seems to be your stance...

So why then, should we have any laws, any rules, any standards?

I'm sure we could use the cash "wasted" on enforcing laws to better effect somewhere else.

The US I want to live in isn't based on that. It based on principles. It's based on doing the right thing, and to hell with what the rest of the world may think.

But then again, what do I know? I'm stupid.

[towerclimber37]

Don't take this the wrong way, but I strongly suspect your knowledge of economics is lacking.

The dollar is not falling because of illegal immigration. It is falling for complex reasons, among them the increase in inflation in the US.

The US stopped backing its dollar with gold in 1972, and stopped backing it for private individuals in 1934.

Illegals do not send every penny they earn to Mexico. They have to live here too. Further money sent back home means those receiving it are not moving here since they have no need to.

I would state as a rule that any solution that involves ending human life is not a viable solution in any way at all.

I hate to embarrass ya rabbi..but even though we use the FIAT dollar, we're still marked by an index thats measured by the amount of gold we hold. If you don't believe that..go to fort Knox and tell THEM that they're holding all that gold for antiquated reasons and they should give it all to you! see how long it takes a few guys with GUNS to drive up in an Suv and take you away..

as for the economics..I said that the dollar is continually being driven down by Illegal immigration...not that its falling solely because of it.

My economic education is right on the money.

as for them spending money here? I know a guy..he manages an apartment complex down in florida.

He once evicted 11 mexicans that were NOT on the lease, and 2 that were...when he went into the apartment he found that they had turned the 2nd bedroom into a garden by putting topsoil on top of the carpet, to grow vegetables.

thats how they keep from spending so much money.

while I think its laudable that they are willing to go to such great lengths to take care of their family, out of those 13 people, guess how many were here legally? guess how many of them had a criminal record in Mexico?

and finally can you guess how many of them had drugs on them when they were caught by immigration?

I don't have a problem with immigrants. I don't have a problem with sending money home.

I have a problem with them being paid under the table and that money not taxed...draining the healthcare system, overwhelming the school systems with illiterate children that have no privisions nor any will to learn english and then thumbing their noses at people that came here with a love for freedom and worked to get here.. JUST LIKE YOUR GRANDFATHER did.

to be an american you have to care for america. they don't. they care about their families first (admirable) and then they care about MEXICO.

Force has solved more conflicts than any other means in the history of mankind.

thats sad to say, and you may not be agreeable with it...but its the only thing that both law abiding citizens AND law breakers understand.

you might want to think very carefully about my tagline rabbi.

then think about how far Israelis get with using the soft approach to the people what want to undermine their way of life.

often the best thing to do is not the easiest thing.That sucks, but hey..thats reality.

[Guest RN MEDIC]

First, sorry to be so late getting in. No offense to anyone for those who will disagree with what I write. That's OK as NOTHING I want will happen anyway so I suppose I'm just dreaming.

One thing for sure is that we can't keep on going like we are or our nation won't survive, at least our system of freedom won't survive; not only over the issue of illegal immigration, but a lot of issues, but I digress.

On illegals, yes, the border must be controlled, and could be if only the electorate wanted it that way enough to hold the politicans accountable and truly vote out the ones who wouldn't respond to the wishes of the voters. HOW? Well, not without costs, that's for sure. I'd start in the morning with HEAVY construction of a HEAVY and HIGH wall on the southern border. I mean ALL of it all the way from the Pacific to the Gulf of Mexico. I'd probably build it in the most heavily traveled areas first. Actually, I'd probably lay the land mines first in front of where the wall and concertina wire would be. Then the wall, light towers, machine gun towers, etc. could be added. Just a few illegals stepping on mines would kinda slow things down a bit.

Next, the materials for the wall; Well, just for example, former Arkansas Governor and presidential candidate Huckabee was and is in the pockets of the Tyson company that produces poultry in northwest Arkansas. This is easily documentable by anyone in Arkansas and astute as to his record. Now in Mexico, there are lots of billboards saying "come to Arkansas and work for Tyson" thus alluring them up here. Seems there ought to be some sort of fine for all that. Use your imagination as to the laws that could be passed to take resources from such scofflaws and buy materials for the wall; BUT..

That would still leave the labor. Actually, that's the easy pare. See, the labor to build the walls, etc would be free. Every illegal identified and every American who is a repeat offender in helping illegals (I don't have all the details worked out yet, but this is just the general idea. Remember, I said this will never happen anyway.) to get away from the border patrol etc. would ALL be taken to the forced labor camp where the current wall building project is now going on. Refuse to work on the wall, mealtime is gonna be a bit late; you get the idea.

Now if any of you guys think I'm nuts you may be right. I just see the country in much more danger than on Pearl Harbor day ; SO BAD that I'm not at all sure our country much less what freedom we still have can or will be salvaged. I'm older and in worse health than most of you younger folks so I don't know if I'll be around when the truly bad stuff REALLY gets going. But God help all of you, and especially the kids, for if the dark cloud of tryanny which looms ever closer continues with the conquest of our once great free representative republic, the consequences are too horrible to even consider.

Rather than bore you any more, I'll just stop it here. Some of you will agree with me and others won't. Oh well, my view is that we are friends first. If we see these things alike that's OK, but we won't always.

Respectfully, RN

[Guest DEIMOS]

I like your idea RN.

I know that things will only get worse, scripture says it, and I believe it. Still, this does not stop me from being heartsick or angry. I don't like sitting by and watching the end come. I vote, I serve my country, but it seems all for naught. The people we have in power are treacherous and they are purposefully destroying this country.

If the time comes, I am willing to fight. Until then, I am doing what I can to prepare myself and my family.