Fireclean users, you have been duped

[Dolomite_supafly]

Apparently Fireclean is nothing more than Crisco brand vegetable oil that costs like $10 a gallon. The testers used infrared spectroscopy to compare FireClean to various vegetable oils and they found a match.

 

I knew it was BS when they claimed that when using Fireclean your gun will be smokier because the formulation used caused the crud to remain as smoke and not get deposited in the gun.

 

I am searching but apparently Fireclean was issued a patent for the use of vegetable oil as a firearm lubricant as well.

 

If any of this is true a lot of shooters are going to view this company in a whole different light.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/

 

 

Initially, the idea that FIREClean was basically just Crisco started with rumors of a spectral analysis, but took off after July of this year, when AR15.com member 12_gauge posted a video to YouTube of a burn-off test between FIREClean and canola oil. The results of this poor man’s spectroscopy were that FireClean and the canola oil looked identical; not a conclusive result, but it began to raise suspicions. Further, FireClean founder Edward Sugg was listed on a patent available to the public listing alternative uses for vegetable oils, such as canola oil, including as firearms lubricants. It was with this that I was all but convinced: FIREClean was canola oil, commonly sold under the brand name “Crisco”. Yesterday the inimitable Andrew Tuohy, a contributor to this blog, posted an article proving to me beyond any doubt that FIREClean is vegetable oil. The results of the infrared spectroscopy he conducted are reproduced below:

 

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/#sthash.47giVDQl.dpuf

 

It is quite apparent that the results for FIREClean and Crisco are very similar. While I’d rather see a control, it is apparent to me that none of the three look more similar in this regard to other common oils than they do to each other. So, in short, to the best of my knowledge, FireClean is canola oil.

 

From my perspective, FIREClean has been one of the most aggressively branded gun lubricants in recent years, promoted as a “revolutionary” lubricant that cleans and removes fouling unlike other offerings. [screenshot here] Gun expert Larry Vickers, who I have great respect for, recently released a spot promoting FIREClean as a superior lubricant, “proven” to carry away more fouling from a firearm due to the greater smoke it produced. Those of us with a modest basis in chemistry were immediately skeptical: The smoke produced by an oil under heat has at best only a tangential relationship to its ability to collect and trap debris.

 

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/#sthash.47giVDQl.dpuf

 

It was with this video, on the backs of what felt like more than circumstantial evidence, that made many feel that “enough was enough”. FIREClean may not have been a poor lubricant, at least for the range where it wasn’t applied to firearms that were stored for a long time, but if it really was $15/oz canola oil as the patents and smoke tests suggested, then the company would have quite a lot to answer for. With Andrew’s spectroscopy, this has been realized. FIREClean, marketed as “the real deal”, a revolutionary lubricant that would sweep aside all the snake oils that have plagued the gun market for years, has proved to be nothing more than canola oil at a 10,000% markup. Those who bought into it may feel cheated, as they undoubtedly were. Those who learned from previous snake oil gun lubes may feel smug, but they shouldn’t. A slick marketing campaign and a reasonably effective (but horrendously overpriced) product was enough to get many people whose opinion I did and continue to respect. Better men than I, for a certainty, were taken in by this product, which has proven to be nothing more than vegetable oil. FIREClean’s reputation should suffer; theirs should not.

 

- See more at: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/09/13/yes-its-true-fireclean-is-crisco/#sthash.47giVDQl.dpuf

 

 

And another article regarding the actual testing.

http://www.vuurwapenblog.com/general-opinion/lies-errors-and-omissions/ir-spectra-fireclean-crisco/

 

 

If you have been on the internet and have visited a sampling of firearm related blogs or social media sites in the last few weeks, you have most likely come across reports or claims that FireClean is nothing more than Crisco vegetable oil. I had heard it from two people in the industry whom I respect around the same time it started being mentioned all over the place (I had previously been aware that it was a food grade oil, but did not know anything more than that).

 

The first real attention-grabber was this video, which has since been removed. It showed FireClean and Crisco vegetable oil smoking and burning off at the same time on a stovetop (my friend Brett replicated this test and saw the same results). Still, this wasn’t the sort of conclusive proof that would sway me one way or the other. It’s possible that two oils could have the same smoke point and not share other properties.

 

I did not – and still do not – believe that FireClean is Crisco, but not for the reason you might think. Although such statements make for shocking arguments, it wouldn’t really make sense to buy a name brand product at a high price if the goal was to resell and make money.

 

Still, the claim that FireClean is nothing more than Crisco is not one to be taken lightly by anyone – not by consumers and certainly not by the company. I spoke at length with one of the makers of FireClean, Ed Sugg, and he assured me that not a single drop of Crisco has ever been part of their formulation, even during initial testing with various mixtures. Interestingly enough, he specifically mentioned that soybean oil had not been part of their testing.

 

Despite these assurances, which I was inclined to believe, I sought to undertake my own testing to determine whether or not these claims are true about FireClean.

 

Trust, but verify.

 

I also contacted the man who seems to have originated the “FireClean is Crisco” claim. George Fennell of WeaponShield posted on his personal Facebook page that FireClean was Crisco several weeks back (I am told that this has been removed, but I cannot view his Facebook page any more).

 

It was claimed by various people, including the guy who first posted that now-removed stovetop video, that he had scientific proof of this claim. I asked Mr. Fennell if he would provide a copy of the analysis, which he refused to do. He told me all I needed to do was look at FireClean’s patent application to see that it was Crisco and/or other vegetable oils. When I asked again, rather politely in my opinion, he sent a very long and agitated message again refusing to supply the test before blocking me on Facebook.

 

Mr. Fennell was the developer of FP-10, a gun oil which, I should mention, I have recommended in the past and said I would purchase over FireClean for reasons of cost. He has since left the company which produces FP-10 and started at WeaponShield. Since then, he has criticized FP-10 as well as FireClean and other oils. I will reiterate that FP-10 provides excellent lubrication characteristics at a competitive price, if you’re looking to buy a gun oil.

 

But the question of the day is about FireClean and Crisco. There was clearly only one way to settle this, and that was to engage in some science.

 

I contacted a professor at the University of Arizona – a very nice man with a Ph.D. in organic chemistry – and he agreed to help with an infrared spectroscopy test of FireClean and two types of Crisco.

 

Two types, you ask? Not generally using anything other than olive oil in my cooking, I was somewhat surprised to find a wall of various types of cooking oils at my local grocery store. There were two types of Crisco oils prominently featured in the display – Pure Vegetable, and Pure Canola. I stood there in the aisle for quite some time, trying to figure out which one to buy. Sensing my puzzlement, a helpful lady asked me if I needed assistance deciding which oil was right for whatever it was I wanted to cook. Suddenly, I understood what it must be like for girls who visit gun stores.

 

Remembering the earlier comment about soybean oil, I determined with the help of the label that Crisco Pure Vegetable oil is made from soybean oil. Crisco Pure Canola is made from, you guessed it, canola. There were also probably half a dozen other brands of canola oil on the shelf. I decided to take both types of Crisco for testing.

 

What did the tests show?

 

FireClean is probably a modern unsaturated vegetable oil virtually the same as many oils used for cooking.

 

The professor had something to say about the formulation and its relevance as a gun oil.

“I don’t see any sign of other additives such as antioxidants or corrosion inhibitors.  Since the unsaturation in these oils, especially linoleate residues, can lead to their oligomerization with exposure to oxygen and light, use on weapons could lead to formation of solid residues (gum) with time.   The more UV and oxygen, the more the oil will degrade.”

 

In my 2013 article about gun oils, I mentioned that FireClean wasn’t advertised as protecting against corrosion. Given the results of this test, I suppose that makes sense.

 

When I fired this AR which had been sitting for years with FireClean on the internals, it hadn’t been exposed to UV, although it certainly saw some oxygen. Since that test, several friends told me privately that their 1911s did not function properly after sitting for six months with FireClean on the internals. It would seem that these results are highly dependent on the weapon.

 

Given that people in the military are often exposed to both UV and oxygen (such as when they go outdoors) and also need corrosion protection for their firearms, I would not recommend FireClean be used by members of the military.

 

I offered FireClean a chance to respond to the findings of this test, and, among other things, they asked to review the draft of this article for a few days before it was published. That is not how this blog works. I assume they will be publishing a response through other channels.

 

BTW, I have a product called Dolomite Clean. It is identical to Fireclean at 1/2 the cost. And I just received the first bulk shipment.

 

[mikegideon]

Well... at least it's safe to pour all over your girlfriend, if you can afford it :)

[Dolomite_supafly]

Well... at least it's safe to pour all over your girlfriend, if you can afford it :)

At $10 a gallon I am sure I can afford enough.

[TNWNGR]

Yeah, I read about that yesterday. That it's canola oil, which of course is a GMO modification of rapeseed, looks pretty obvious. It being Crisco though, well I suspect a bulk purchase from the same source Crisco uses which would be even cheaper.

[enfield]

Bacon grease. Smells heavenly when it heats up & muslims won't steal yer gun.

[monkeylizard]

Does using Fireclean make it a grease gun?

[TNMTBik3r]

Crisco or not, carbon does wipe right off with it. 

I am interested in more details, hell maybe I just need to steal the wifes crisco and compare how it cleans.

[Garufa]

I never consider Crisco as a liquid as I come from a Wesson Oil family.  I'd like to see someone slather on some regular Crisco on their AR, you know, the solid kind.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I never consider Crisco as a liquid as I come from a Wesson Oil family.  I'd like to see someone slather on some regular Crisco on their AR, you know, the solid kind.

I run grease on a lot of things and I might pick up a tub to compare.

[TNWNGR]

I never consider Crisco as a liquid as I come from a Wesson Oil family.  I'd like to see someone slather on some regular Crisco on their AR, you know, the solid kind.

 

I'm guessing you and the others here have used the hydrogenated oil "solid" version of Crisco in black powder handguns or to lube patches in black powder rifles or shotguns? If so then you know in addition to preventing flame leap across charged cylinders it leaves behind an easily cleaned mess. The guns clean up better than with tallow. I'd be real surprised if someone at the company in question here didn't already know about that little tidbit.

[felinesNfreedom]

I have some of the Solid Crisco Butter flavored, for frying fish..... or Lubing the AR and AK now  :yum:

Edited September 16, 2015 by XxthejuicexX

[shotgunshooter]

Needs more butter

[TGO David]

It's not Crisco.  It's obviously a vegetable based oil because they clearly state that it's NOT petroleum based and is bio-safe.  If it were Crisco, Fireclean would be facing serious patent issues submitting someone else's product as theirs and calling it something else.

 

The infrared spectrography  analysis also does not show a 100% match between the two.  Further, that type of testing is not ideal for determining precisely what is in a product and at what volumes.  Again, Fireclean is obviously a vegetable based oil product however the exact formulation could be significantly different between Crisco, Wesson, Fireclean, FP10, etc.

 

Regardless of all of this, it's pretty clear that it works well.  I've been a fan of Weaponshield for almost 10 years now but recently tried Fireclean on a few handguns and it cleans up easier than anything I've ever seen before.

[Omega]

I don't doubt that it's a simple formula, possibility a repackaged product used for a different purpose.  Things like this have been alluded to before, in bullet casting a popular sprue plate lube is said by some to be nothing more than repackaged synthetic oil.  But the die hards refuse to even entertain the thought, maybe because they don't want to believe they have been duped.  I think the same thing will occur here.

[bowtieguy]

That's not the only product on the market using vegetable oils. There is one produced locally that uses an oil that is claimed to be food safe. When I spoke with them about what it actually was they stated it was a commonly available product. I don't particularly have an issue with a company using a specific blend of oils that may serve a purpose that an unblended oil wouldn't otherwise. As long as there is some actual truth to the claims of lubrication and corrosion protection I don't care what it's made up of.

[MountainDewed]

I was told ketchup and mayonnaise... :P 

[felinesNfreedom]

I was told ketchup and mayonnaise... :P

 

 

On hotdogs?

[raildog]

I have some of the Solid Crisco Butter flavored, for frying fish..... or Lubing the AR and AK now :yum:

If they would and bacon flavor to that it would be the greatest gun lube ever

[TNWNGR]

It's not Crisco.  It's obviously a vegetable based oil because they clearly state that it's NOT petroleum based and is bio-safe.  If it were Crisco, Fireclean would be facing serious patent issues submitting someone else's product as theirs and calling it something else.

 

The infrared spectrography  analysis also does not show a 100% match between the two.  Further, that type of testing is not ideal for determining precisely what is in a product and at what volumes.  Again, Fireclean is obviously a vegetable based oil product however the exact formulation could be significantly different between Crisco, Wesson, Fireclean, FP10, etc.

 

Regardless of all of this, it's pretty clear that it works well.  I've been a fan of Weaponshield for almost 10 years now but recently tried Fireclean on a few handguns and it cleans up easier than anything I've ever seen before.

Am not disputing anything you say Dave and fully agree it's not Crisco, but the spectrograph makes a good case its a GMO rapeseed derivative. I don't see it as bad but do see the mystic being shattered. I used solid Crisco several times in BP handguns and rifles and thought it worked great. The only negative I see on any vegetable oil based product used on or in firearms as a cleaner or preservative is it will become gummy. I think its a product that's going to go through some public embarrassment and face some fresh competition.

[quickbiscuit]

It's not Crisco.  It's obviously a vegetable based oil because they clearly state that it's NOT petroleum based and is bio-safe.  If it were Crisco, Fireclean would be facing serious patent issues submitting someone else's product as theirs and calling it something else.
 
The infrared spectrography  analysis also does not show a 100% match between the two.  Further, that type of testing is not ideal for determining precisely what is in a product and at what volumes.  Again, Fireclean is obviously a vegetable based oil product however the exact formulation could be significantly different between Crisco, Wesson, Fireclean, FP10, etc.
 
Regardless of all of this, it's pretty clear that it works well.  I've been a fan of Weaponshield for almost 10 years now but recently tried Fireclean on a few handguns and it cleans up easier than anything I've ever seen before.

The patent application shows that at least 80% of Fireclean's composition is a blend of three different vegetable oils. Crisco is a trademarked name but that's irrelevant. People are using Crisco to name vegetable oil in this context just as you would use "Coke" to refer to a soda. No one has a "patent" on vegetable oil.

[bowtieguy]

After doing a bit of research, I've seen others ask the question if it is a biodegradable product, at what point (time wise) does it start to degrade? I know from being in and around restaurants that certain oils such as sesame or olive oil can spoil rather quickly. Makes me think maybe that could happen with these products as well. I for one clean my guns often enough that I've never had an issue but could it be down the road?

[TGO David]

Am not disputing anything you say Dave and fully agree it's not Crisco, but the spectrograph makes a good case its a GMO rapeseed derivative. I don't see it as bad but do see the mystic being shattered. I used solid Crisco several times in BP handguns and rifles and thought it worked great. The only negative I see on any vegetable oil based product used on or in firearms as a cleaner or preservative is it will become gummy. I think its a product that's going to go through some public embarrassment and face some fresh competition.

 

I agree it's clearly a GMO rapeseed derivative - there's really very little way to dispute that.  But the spectrograph doesn't show everything there is to know about the product's formulation and there are enough deviations in it that hint at additives to substantiate the manufacturer's claims that it's not straight vegetable oil.  Heck, several machine shops that I have been around over the years used olive oil in their CNC cutting machines.

 

As for the public embarrassment, I think it's wise to consider the source of that shaming in this case.  The guy who started this whole thing is a competitor of FireClean.  :)

[TNWNGR]

I agree it's clearly a GMO rapeseed derivative - there's really very little way to dispute that.  But the spectrograph doesn't show everything there is to know about the product's formulation and there are enough deviations in it that hint at additives to substantiate the manufacturer's claims that it's not straight vegetable oil.  Heck, several machine shops that I have been around over the years used olive oil in their CNC cutting machines.

 

As for the public embarrassment, I think it's wise to consider the source of that shaming in this case.  The guy who started this whole thing is a competitor of FireClean.   :)

 

Oh I'm absolutely clear on who started this rodeo and that mudslinging's going on with all involved. It's amusing and reminds me of all the fuss when the synthetic oil gun lubes were allegedly linked back to Mobile 1.  

[Ted S.]

I have some leftover clairified butter I might experiment with after seeing this thread.