how are these bailouts fair?

[Mark@Sea]

The argument about all the service and support industries failing won't fly. Toyota, Honda, VW - how many others? All have plants in this country, all use the same suppliers. All are non-union (which really hacks off the UAW, as they have tried and failed repeatedly to unionize those plants). All pay their workers quite well.

US automakers were pushed to this by government meddling in the market (CAFE standards) and organized crime... err, organized labor. Look at Ford; Ford makes great trucks that are really popular, but in order to meet CAFE fleet regulations, they have to make a couple of small cars that are so unpopular they have to sell them at a loss to get people to buy them.

The 'Big Three Bailout' is really the UAW bailout. The deal-breaker wasn't the companies - it was UAW, refusing any concessions until their contracts expire in a couple of years. UAW has been the boat anchor for Chrysler for several years now, forcing the company into failure. Daimler-Benz bought 'em up, but as soon as they discovered the unreal conditions under which they'd have to fellate the unions, they dumped them back on the market.

Any 'bailout' money without addressing these problems is a waste of time. The companies will still be forced to compete with the UAW suffocating them, and the governments' unrealistic standards holding them down. Think of bankruptcy as the wooden stake needed to put the UAW vampire down.

[analog_kidd]

I don't even pretend to understand what this may do to our economy, but here is something that has been bugging me. Using totally made up numbers, lets just say there are 60 million new cars sold in the US each year. The big three, Toyota, Nissan and VW each sell 10 million. If the Big three go under, won't 60 million people still want new cars, and wont the rest of the manufacturers just step up production to handle the demand. If so, then won't that put back the workers and suppliers?

Secondly, don't the big three have plants and sell cars all over the world? Why aren't they asking some of these other countries to pony up some money. Won't it affect them as well? Why does the US allways have to be everyone's Suggar Daddy?

[ukerduker]

If the "Big Three" fail, I wonder how long it will take the UAW to force themselves upon Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, and Volkswagen? The Volkswagen plant itself is not even under construction yet, but the UAW is already trying to make inroads towards union control of it. What a waste!

I have known many folks that have happily worked for Komatsu, and Nissan. At this time, these companies have no mafia type unions to take their profitability away from them, and yet, the people who work there are happy - imagine that!

I did hear this and thought, what are you bitching about? Maybe someone sees a better financial advantage in investing in this company. Maybe local people will be employed. Maybe your company should take notice. I'm no economist, but I DO see when a current business model is failing.

[Guest Boomhower]

The argument about all the service and support industries failing won't fly. Toyota, Honda, VW - how many others? All have plants in this country, all use the same suppliers. All are non-union (which really hacks off the UAW, as they have tried and failed repeatedly to unionize those plants). All pay their workers quite well.

US automakers were pushed to this by government meddling in the market (CAFE standards) and organized crime... err, organized labor. Look at Ford; Ford makes great trucks that are really popular, but in order to meet CAFE fleet regulations, they have to make a couple of small cars that are so unpopular they have to sell them at a loss to get people to buy them.

The 'Big Three Bailout' is really the UAW bailout. The deal-breaker wasn't the companies - it was UAW, refusing any concessions until their contracts expire in a couple of years. UAW has been the boat anchor for Chrysler for several years now, forcing the company into failure. Daimler-Benz bought 'em up, but as soon as they discovered the unreal conditions under which they'd have to fellate the unions, they dumped them back on the market.

Any 'bailout' money without addressing these problems is a waste of time. The companies will still be forced to compete with the UAW suffocating them, and the governments' unrealistic standards holding them down. Think of bankruptcy as the wooden stake needed to put the UAW vampire down.

+1.....What the UAW is doing for the auto industry, is exactly what more government control will do for "the people".

[clipslinger]

Gotta news flash for ya sparky, When the union jobs go away so will the pay at your nipponese plants. The japs pay just enough to keep the union at bay. When the American auto industry crumbles your hondas and nissans will go up steadily in price because the competition has been eliminated. Mr Corker is pushing the unions because Mr Corker is in the wings for our asian friends and will do whatever to appease them. He is NOT making the neocon statement you think. I am disturbed at the number of people who want to usher in the third world to our country. You bit** about socialism then turn around cut your brothers throat. I said it before those union dollars spend just like your I.T. dollars, and your white collar dollars. I dont like people who hire illegals, its wrong and imoral but i bet alot of folks fussing about the big three have no problem with it. The unions have given ground on every issue for the past ten years, its time for the companies to give a little. Maybe even close a plant in mexico or canada. The bottom line is pay now or pay later, anyway you slice it we foot the bill and the fed res. will bear the brunt.

[Mike.357]

Gotta news flash for ya sparky,

which "sparky" are you referring to?

[clipslinger]

Generic figure of speech gleamed from some obscure movie somwhere. No offense intended, i try not to be irate or demeaning on forums. I dont like it when others do it so i dont. Golden rule and all that. Just trying to state a point. How com when a guy starts a business up doing title loans or check advance hes an entreprenuer, and every body applauds. A guy starts a bank making money off of lending your money and hes a guru, same with a stock broker who gambles your savings or a lawyer who generally lies for a living thats acceptable, but a blue collar guy trying to look out for his future when his back is gone or his knees dont work well thats just horrible. We cant have that.

[Guest mw.]

The threat of a union is a great thing. It does keep the companies without one a little more honest about things. Actually getting a union is something else.

[Guest Mezzaluna]

Gotta news flash for ya sparky, When the union jobs go away so will the pay at your nipponese plants. The japs pay just enough to keep the union at bay. When the American auto industry crumbles your hondas and nissans will go up steadily in price because the competition has been eliminated. Mr Corker is pushing the unions because Mr Corker is in the wings for our asian friends and will do whatever to appease them. He is NOT making the neocon statement you think. I am disturbed at the number of people who want to usher in the third world to our country. You bit** about socialism then turn around cut your brothers throat. I said it before those union dollars spend just like your I.T. dollars, and your white collar dollars. I dont like people who hire illegals, its wrong and imoral but i bet alot of folks fussing about the big three have no problem with it. The unions have given ground on every issue for the past ten years, its time for the companies to give a little. Maybe even close a plant in mexico or canada. The bottom line is pay now or pay later, anyway you slice it we foot the bill and the fed res. will bear the brunt.

I completely agree with your statements about Corker. While I'm glad he defeated the bailout his reasons for fighting it had a lot more to do with lobbyists in his pocket than trying to help the people. You see that with some of the strings he was attaching to the bailout.

But I disagree with thinking that the Big three and unions are at all good. A majority of your "domestic" cars are built in Canada and Mexico. And even more so the investors in those companies are from everywhere... not so much an "American" company.

I drive a Nissan, it was built a couple of miles from where I live and work. I can't see how that's worse than buying a car built in Mexico.

I think there was a time when unions were very necessary and helpful, and some of them still are. But the majority of them are corrupt and useless and make the workers very lazy. It breeds the "Its not my job" attitude that just disgusts me and is totally counter productive.

[Guest nraforlife]

Divide and conquer. Keep us so busy fighting among ourselves we lose track of the real enemy.

[Guest Schwarzgebrannt]

Gotta news flash for ya sparky, When the union jobs go away so will the pay at your nipponese plants. The japs pay just enough to keep the union at bay. When the American auto industry crumbles your hondas and nissans will go up steadily in price because the competition has been eliminated. Mr Corker is pushing the unions because Mr Corker is in the wings for our asian friends and will do whatever to appease them. He is NOT making the neocon statement you think. I am disturbed at the number of people who want to usher in the third world to our country. You bit** about socialism then turn around cut your brothers throat. I said it before those union dollars spend just like your I.T. dollars, and your white collar dollars. I dont like people who hire illegals, its wrong and imoral but i bet alot of folks fussing about the big three have no problem with it. The unions have given ground on every issue for the past ten years, its time for the companies to give a little. Maybe even close a plant in mexico or canada. The bottom line is pay now or pay later, anyway you slice it we foot the bill and the fed res. will bear the brunt.

The UAW gave 99 percent of its $1.8 million in campaign donations to Democrats in this year's election, and that's just the data for the federal races.

Even $28 is too much to pay an unskilled, uneducated line worker. That's why those jobs are moving to Mexico and plants are closing everywhere.

[Guest m4coyote]

I wonder if the UAW has supplied a highly skilled and well paid technician to spit shine Barney Franks knob? We all know how deserving and wonderful old Barney is, so that is the least that the UAW could do.

[clipslinger]

The UAW gave 99 percent of its $1.8 million in campaign donations to Democrats in this year's election, and that's just the data for the federal races.

Even $28 is too much to pay an unskilled, uneducated line worker. That's why those jobs are moving to Mexico and plants are closing everywhere.

Says who, you? What if I thought that 45 dollars was too much to pay an automechanic. I know a lot of those who cant read and quit school in the tenth grade. I see a lot of degrees where I work but they can barely tie their shoes. That unskilled labor is harder than most think it is, when I got hired there were 2,700 applicants and they hired 21 of us. I challenge you this look and see how much wall street donated to Obama and then Mcain. Im sure theres a link here somewheres. Check out how much Chevy gave the Dems. IT jobs here are going to India at an alarming rate.Maybe they should make a union.

[strickj]

Says who, you? What if I thought that 45 dollars was too much to pay an automechanic. I know a lot of those who cant read and quit school in the tenth grade. I see a lot of degrees where I work but they can barely tie their shoes. That unskilled labor is harder than most think it is, when I got hired there were 2,700 applicants and they hired 21 of us. I challenge you this look and see how much wall street donated to Obama and then Mcain. Im sure theres a link here somewheres. Check out how much Chevy gave the Dems. IT jobs here are going to India at an alarming rate.Maybe they should make a union.

Actually you're not paying a mechanic 45 bucks an hour.

You're paying the shop he works for 45 an hour,which in turns pays the mechanic an average wage.

Or the shop charges the mechanic rent for the floor space he uses.

Ill add to that,that mechanics also have to pay for their own tools and equipment,which will usually be in the thousands.

And yes,that "unskilled labor" is very much skilled especially in todays computer driven cars.

[DaveTN]

Actually you're not paying a mechanic 45 bucks an hour.

And there aren’t any line workers making $90 an hour or pushing a broom for $75 an hour either; but in case you haven’t noticed facts are not going to matter in any of these threads.

[strickj]

And there aren’t any line workers making $90 an hour or pushing a broom for $75 an hour either; but in case you haven’t noticed facts are not going to matter in any of these threads.

Which is why I have stayed out of this one.Its useless!

I just thought I would tell folks why auto labor is so high,so they would stop bitching about that.