Knoxville Allowing Fair to Prohibit Guns in a Park

[macville]

If they stand their ground I bet it will just be turning people away. I don’t think many cops (or a department) would want to arrest someone when they know, or should have known, it’s not a crime.

Obviously they don’t agree with the Attorney General; so a court will need to hear this.

 

What I am trying to find out is if to having sanding for a lawsuit someone would have to go down there and get turned away? I believe so (which I think is stupid), but wanted to see first.

[runco]

Knoxville WVLT ran this story last night:

 

http://www.local8now.com/home/headlines/Gun-owners-claim-Tennessee-Valley-Fairs-policy-violates-state-law-326543241.html

 

KNOXVILLE, Tenn. (WVLT) -- When you walk up to the front gates of the Tennessee Valley Fair, it's one of the first signs you see-- a sign saying "no weapons."

But Liston Matthews, a life-long gun owner and member of the Tennessee Firearms Association, feels it sends the wrong signal.

"It's really a civil rights issue, if you will," he says.

He claims this policy violates a state law.

Last spring, Governor Bill Haslam signed a bill telling municipalities they can't stop carry permit holders from bringing their guns into a local park.

But the City of Knoxville says this law doesn't apply to this scenario.

The city argues that, despite the name, Chilhowee Park isn't actually a park. Instead, it's an entertainment center that organizations can rent out for special events.

Matthews isn't buying it.

He points out that the Knox County website lists the real estate as a park.

"Something that looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, what do you think it is? It's probably a duck," he says.

And the State Attorney General's office agrees. A similar disagreement popped up in Memphis under similar circumstances.

Attorney General Herbert Slatery III argues even if a third-party leases out a park and charges admission, this state law still applies.

But their office can't tell the city what to do. Knoxville's law director is free to interpret the state law as he sees it. If a gun owner disagrees, he or she can take the issue to court, where a state judge would have the final ruling on how the law reads.

Sarah Carson, with the Tennessee Valley Fair, says it's been their policy for years for safety reasons. And it's not just guns. Selfie sticks are also considered contraband.

"We respect their opinions, but we're just trying to run our event, again as a non-profit community event. And we just want to make sure it's a safe, secure environment for families to come out and have a good time," she says.

While Matthews isn't asking anyone to break rules this weekend, he says he'd feel safer if he could carry.

"If I were going to the fair this evening, could you guarantee that I will not need to defend myself against unlawful aggression? Again, the answer is no," he says.

Matthews says he has no plans to bring the issue to court. He's asking state representatives to clarify the law during next year's legislative session.

[Pain103]

The only way to avoid the word game is to say all city, county, or state owned or operated property.

[macville]

The only way to avoid the word game is to say all city, county, or state owned or operated property.

 

You mean not just park property? The law currently says all recreational property. It's a pretty thin excuse by the city saying that Chilhowee park is not recreational property. Every definition of the word I can find would include Chilhowee. So nothing will happen without a lawsuit.

[Garufa]

The only way to avoid the word game is to say all city, county, or state owned or operated property.

 

If word games were avoided every lawyer and politician in the country would be out of a job.

Edited September 11, 2015 by Garufa

[300winmag]

The best thing to do would be to eliminate the silly no guns sign law or remove the fine of it for handgun carry permits and armed guards.  Also just give a clean exception to the park guns law for handgun carry permits without the two pages of nonsense just like armed guards have.  I'd add a clean exception for handgun carry permits on school property too just like armed guards have while working.

[Ray Z]

If I can't carry there I won't be going. That will make room for some hearty group of 6 that don't need to worry about the screwballs of the world all in one place.

[macville]

Man, it just gets dumber and dumber. Any way to add Haslam somehow into a lawsuit? Isn't he supposed to enforce state law?

 

 Gov. agrees with Mayor Rogero: no guns at fair NASHVILLE — Gov. Bill Haslam said Friday he agrees with the city of Knoxville’s decision to ban all guns…       

[leroy]

I wouldn't go the fair in Knoxville, TN; armed or not... Why would anybody go over to a place that has extended an open invitation for every thug and idiot in east tennessee to attend... It's already on the "frontier" over in east knoxville... The only time i go over there is to the gun show where everyone is armed; and im thinkin about not doin that...  Let this bunch wallow in their own filth... The city of knoxville needs to loose rohero (...or whatever her name is...) and the clown that is chief of police... I'm beginnin to think we need to loose the "Snooz" Haslam as well...

 

Non attendin leroy

[Oh Shoot]

Man, it just gets dumber and dumber. Any way to add Haslam somehow into a lawsuit? Isn't he supposed to enforce state law?

 

 Gov. agrees with Mayor Rogero: no guns at fair NASHVILLE — Gov. Bill Haslam said Friday he agrees with the city of Knoxville’s decision to ban all guns…       

 

 

So now expect all the anti cities to remove their recreational properties from under "Parks and Recreation Department management" and claim to be able to ban carry that way, eh?

 

Just takes shuffling a few papers around.

 

- OS

[phil1979]

Only if Tennessee had a Republican governor...oh, wait!

 

I guess by "clarification" from the legislature next year, Haslam means to make it clear that some places that were restored for us to carry at are promptly placed back as off limits. What the governor giveth he taketh away.

 

Question is, does the legislature have the spine to make clear their original intent? How about they make it simple and remove all public property from off limits except courtrooms with metal detectors, jails, and mental institutions?

 

Lots of folks in Georgia are watching what happens there in Tennessee. Why doesn't TFA have the guts to sue over this?

[dawgdoc]

I would love for the "clarification" to be even more explicit that everywhere in any public park is OK, and to clarify that a municipality cannot give away to private entities power that it does not possess itself.  While I am wishfully thinking, how about severe penalties for any municipality or agency who violates the law?  Right now, the blowhards in Knoxville and Memphis are thumbing their noses at the legislature and the AG because they know there are no repercussions. 

[Oh Shoot]

I would love for the "clarification" to be even more explicit that everywhere in any public park is OK, and to clarify that a municipality cannot give away to private entities power that it does not possess itself.  While I am wishfully thinking, how about severe penalties for any municipality or agency who violates the law?  Right now, the blowhards in Knoxville and Memphis are thumbing their noses at the legislature and the AG because they know there are no repercussions. 

 

That's why a suit that included ongoing injunction would be handy -- would mean power of a contempt penalty for whichever cheese continued to ignore it.

 

- OS

Edited September 12, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[phil1979]

A $500 fine from any government official's personal pocket funds per violation of one's carry rights seems reasonable to me. That would put an immediate stop to this arrogant foolishness from local politicians.

 

Isn't the AG upset enough about this to come out and tell them to stop it? He knows they are laughing at him behind his back. They are not keeping it a secret that they think his opinion on the "Guns in Parks" law is stupid.

[phil1979]

Just now tried to send this email to addresses I thought might reach Attorney General Slatery, but none went through, so I'll post it as an open letter to him here:

 

Dear Tennessee Attorney General Slatery,

 

Lately, local government officials have been making a mockery of your recent opinion regarding the new "Guns in Parks" law. Doesn't that upset you?They are even going so far as to say that a park is not a park, like Knoxville Mayor Rogero. Shockingly, even Gov. Haslam is agreeing with her foolishness.

 

If you want to have any political hope to run as governor someday, you've got to stand up to this foolishness and put a stop it with strong words.
 

Tennesseans are sick of nambly-pambly leadership. They want a real leader who stands behind state law and freedom for the people.

I hope you take action, and soon.
 

Thanks and best regards,
 

Phillip Evans

Edited September 12, 2015 by phil1979

[Mike.357]

not so sure he will see that.    :cool:

[Ron_TN]

Gov. Haslam agrees with city's view on no guns at fair "posted" 9/11/15

NASHVILLE — Gov. Bill Haslam said Friday he agrees with the city of Knoxville’s decision to ban all guns from the Tennessee Valley Fair because Chilhowee Park isn’t a city park as defined by a new state law allowing handgun-carry permit holders to go armed in local parks.

But the governor, who is the former mayor of Knoxville, also said the new Knoxville controversy points to the need to clarify the law when the Tennessee Legislature reconvenes in January.

Knoxville Mayor Madeline Rogero said Thursday that guns, including those carried by permit holders, won’t be allowed at the fair because the new state law prohibiting cities and counties from banning permit-holders from going armed in local parks under their control doesn’t apply to Chilhowee. Although Chilhowee Park is owned by the city, city officials contend it is not a “park” as defined by the law but rather a “public assembly, entertainment and education venue used for civic events and by contractors for special events.”

Asked Friday about the city’s action, Haslam said, “I’m not a lawyer so I can’t get in there, but I think the mayor’s point there is that by any definition of a city park — it’s not run by the city Parks and Recreation Department — it doesn’t fit that definition. So I’ll trust the city’s law department, the conclusions they’ve come to.”

When he signed the guns-in-parks bill into law in April, Haslam urged legislative leaders in a letter to monitor its implementation, in part because of its confusing language. In August, when Tennessee Attorney General Herbert Slatery issued an advisory opinion saying cities, counties and contractors cannot ban permit-holders from going armed in paid, ticketed events like concerts and other events in local parks, the governor reiterated his concerns about the law’s clarity and said lawmakers should review it in light of the opinion.

He repeated that concern on Friday.

“I do think there’s a need for clarification, because you have a lot of situations where, OK, what exactly is a park? When some people think of parks, they’re thinking of big empty fields or forests that are very different from the case at Chillhowee Park in Knoxville and a few others. So I would like to see some clarification around that,” the governor told reporters after a speech to National Guard officials from around the country at the Opryland Hotel in Nashville.

On Thursday, Rogero issued a statement saying “Chilhowee Park is not managed as a city of Knoxville park by the Parks and Recreation Department, nor does it function as a park or recreation facility. It has, for a number of years, been managed and marketed by the city’s Public Assembly Facilities Department for entertainment events and exhibitions. Therefore, guns will continue to be prohibited at Chilhowee Park, pursuant to state law, including at events such as the Tennessee Valley Fair.”

That has gun-rights activists locally and statewide up in arms, contending the city’s action violates the new state law.

The Tennessee Firearms Association issued an “urgent call to action” to its members by email Thursday, encouraging them to call the governor, the mayor and Knoxville Law Director Charles Swanson and ask that the fair “comply with state law.”

TFA Executive Director John Harris said the city’s ban “places permitted citizens at risk of arrest if they attempt to enter Chilhowee Park with their lawfully carried handgun.” He also said it may place the city and the far “at risk of being sued for violating the civil rights of handgun permit holders.”

 

The Associated Press contributed to this story.

 

[Worriedman]

I'd opine that's more of a argument of semantics on that point.

 

The "with a view to prevent crime" is the more valid one, but again semantics raises its head -- does that actually require "proof" that any particular carry law does that, or simply that the attempt to do so is sufficient?

 

Religion gets special consideration in both federal and state law, without any proof of gods. :)

 

- OS

From the case which speaks to this issue:

Andrews v. State, 50 Tenn. 165, 181 (1871).”

“The Tennessee Supreme Court has recognized that the General Assembly has the authority, under this section of the Constitution, (Article 1 § 26)  to enact legislation to regulate the wearing and carrying of arms in public. Any such enactment, however, “must be guided by, and restrained to this end, and bear some well defined relation to the prevention of crime, or else it is unauthorized by this clause of the Constitution.”
 

[macville]

From the case which speaks to this issue:

Andrews v. State, 50 Tenn. 165, 181 (1871).”

“The Tennessee Supreme Court has recognized that the General Assembly has the authority, under this section of the Constitution, (Article 1 § 26)  to enact legislation to regulate the wearing and carrying of arms in public. Any such enactment, however, “must be guided by, and restrained to this end, and bear some well defined relation to the prevention of crime, or else it is unauthorized by this clause of the Constitution.”
 

 

That's a great find. Thanks for posting that.

It really could be argued by that logic that permits are unconstitutional since plenty of other states have shown that the permit system doesn't reduce or prevent crime.

[Worriedman]

Not just the Knoxville folks:

 

http://tnstatefair.org/about-the-fair/code-of-conduct
 

 

From the site:

No firearms or other weapons are allowed, regardless of whether bearer holds a concealed weapons permit. Law enforcement officers while on duty are excluded.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Worriedman

[phil1979]

Well, Nashville is special. :LOL:

 

Not just the Knoxville folks:

 

http://tnstatefair.org/about-the-fair/code-of-conduct
 

 

From the site:

No firearms or other weapons are allowed, regardless of whether bearer holds a concealed weapons permit. Law enforcement officers while on duty are excluded.

[dawgdoc]

So does anyone know if there is an organization that actively fights in the courts?  As many have said, it appears that a court would have to decide.  Since I assume few want to be a test case and get arrested, it would appear that an organization (or individual) with enough money would need to sue the cities to force them to comply with the law.  Has TFA or any other group indicated that they would do this?

[DaveTN]

So does anyone know if there is an organization that actively fights in the courts?  As many have said, it appears that a court would have to decide.  Since I assume few want to be a test case and get arrested, it would appear that an organization (or individual) with enough money would need to sue the cities to force them to comply with the law.  Has TFA or any other group indicated that they would do this?

Good question. I say that because this is a question I have asked more than once about the Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act. The law says manufacturers in Tennessee can manufacture and sell guns or suppressors to Tennessee residents with no interference from the Feds. But the Feds say they will put them in jail if they do. Manufacturers and dealers can’t risk their business and FFL’s to find out; citizens can’t risk their freedom to find out.

The AG’s opinion is a dog with no teeth; so this (Parks issue) will have to be decided in court. I don’t understand why someone would have to be arrested to test this law. It’s a risk to the citizen and a risk to the city and Police Department that does it.

No one was arrested in the Heller case and it went to the SCOTUS.

[Oh Shoot]

....
No one was arrested in the Heller case and it went to the SCOTUS.

 

Nor of course was Otis McDonald arrested in Chicago.

 

- OS

[Mike.357]

glad Haslem is a pro gun governor.  Imagine what he'd say if he was a anti gun governor.

 

Of course he will say he is all about 2A.