Over 100 retired miliary leaders hit "Don't Ask/Don't Tell, Call for Repeal

[Guest Len]

Wondering what those who have served/currently serve think about the story below.

http://www.military.com/news/article/retired-leaders-hit-dont-ask-policy.html?ESRC=eb.nl

(the small paragraph in bold/italic below was highlighted by me since I was amazed at the numbers.)

ANNAPOLIS, Md. - More than 100 retired generals and admirals called Monday for repeal of the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays, and to permit gays to serve openly, according to a statement obtained by The Associated Press.

The move by the military veterans confronts the incoming administration of President-elect Barack Obama with a thorny political and cultural issue that dogged former President Bill Clinton early in his administration.

"As is the case with Great Britain, Israel, and other nations that allow gays and lesbians to serve openly, our service members are professionals who are able to work together effectively despite differences in race, gender, religion, and sexuality," the officers wrote.

While Obama has expressed support for repeal, he said during the presidential campaign that he would not do so on his own - an indication that he would tread carefully to prevent the issue from becoming a drag on his agenda. Obama said he would instead work with military leaders to build consensus on removing the ban on openly gay service members.

"Although I have consistently said I would repeal 'don't ask, don't tell,' I believe that the way to do it is make sure that we are working through a process, getting the Joint Chiefs of Staff clear in terms of what our priorities are going to be," Obama said in a September interview with the Philadelphia Gay News.

Tommy Vietor, a spokesman for Obama's transition team, declined comment.

The issue of gays in the military became a flash point early in the Clinton administration as Clinton tried to fulfill a campaign promise to end the military's ban on gays. His efforts created the current compromise policy - ending the ban but prohibiting active-duty service members from openly acknowledging they are gay.

But it came at a political cost. The resulting debate divided service members and veterans, put Democrats on the defensive and provided cannon fodder for social conservatives and Republican critics who questioned Clinton's patriotism and standing with the military.

Retired Adm. Charles Larson, a four-star admiral and two-time superintendent of the U.S. Naval Academy who signed the statement with 104 other retired admirals and generals, said in an interview that he believed Clinton's approach was flawed because he rushed to change military culture.

Larson said he hoped Obama would take more time to work with the Pentagon. Joining Larson among the signatories was Clifford Alexander, Army secretary under former President Jimmy Carter.

"There are a lot of issues they'll have to work out, and I think they'll have to prioritize," Larson said, noting that the new administration will immediately face combat-readiness issues and budget concerns. "But I hope this would be one of the priority issues in the personnel area."

The list of 104 former officers who signed the statement appears to signal growing support for resolving the status of gays in the military. Last year, 28 former generals and admirals signed a similar statement.

Larson, who has a gay daughter he says has broadened his thinking on the subject, believes a generational shift in attitudes toward homosexuality has created a climate where a repeal is not only workable, but also an important step for keeping talented personnel in the military.

"I know a lot of young people now - even people in the area of having commands of ships and squadrons - and they are much more tolerant, and they believe, as I do, that we have enough regulations on the books to enforce proper standards of human behavior," Larson said.

The officers' statement points to data showing there are about 1 million gay and lesbian veterans in the United States, and about 65,000 gays and lesbians currently serving in the military.

The military discharged about 12,340 people between 1994 and 2007 for violating the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, according to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, a military watchdog group. The number peaked in 2001 at 1,273, but began dropping off sharply after the Sept. 11 attacks.

Last year, 627 military personnel were discharged under the policy.

Political observers say that even though the issue may not be as controversial as it was when Clinton addressed it, it's impossible to forget what happened then.

Larry Sabato, a political scientist at the University of Virginia, said Obama is unlikely to tackle the issue early on. Sabato said he expects Obama to focus on economic recovery and avoid risking the spark of a distracting "brush fire" controversy at the outset.

"I can't imagine that he will do this right in the beginning, given the Clinton precedent," Sabato said.

Aaron Belkin, who has studied the "don't ask, don't tell" policy as director of the Palm Center at the University of California at Santa Barbara and organized the officers' statement, said how Obama addresses the issue will be the first test for the new president on gay rights.

"Everyone is going to be interested to see how he responds," Belkin said.

[DWARREN123]

Professionals are professionals no matter what. Just as long as everyone does their job properly.

[Mike.357]

What I want to know is if the "don't ask don't tell" thing is removed can they be married by base chaplains? This of course pertaining to bases in states that allow such a thing.

[Daniel]

on post is federal property.

[Rightwinger]

anyone here know if I'm married (shut up TDR)?

anyone know if I had sex recently?

I don't discuss it, no need to, its a very private thing.

I don't care if they are straight, bi or dirt road MO!

The moment anyone wants to make an issue of who they did the dirty with last night they are unprofessional and need to go. It disrupts unit integrety.

I wrote 3 more paragraphs expanding this but you either agree or don't and my little addition to the bytes in cyber world won't change anyone's mind.

I say repeal "dont ask don't tell". Ban them again altogether. Its not a social experiment, its the defense forces of America. If they seriously want to serve, they will keep their secret to themselves just like those that like to do recreational drugs. If you gotta do it, you risk losing your job! I'm sure many have done just such a thing and served to retirement only to move in with Bobby Joe afterward when it no longer matterd.

Just say no to male roosters!

[Guest Major Pain]

Agree 100+. Nobody's business who or what I sleep with. If you want to be a professional soldier you obey orders. Don't ask don't tell keeps discipline in the ranks. If you can't obey, get out.--MP

By the way, I like pie.--MP

[Rock.45]

I agree with Major Pain , we don't need a bunch of soldiers acting like gays . Professional soldiers will be a thing in the past if this goes thought. There is NO room for it. It will under mind the Military . Just my 2 cents

[Guest GT_Rat]

Don't give a crap. Do your job, follow the UCMJ, and shut the hell up. You want to poke butt after hours the motto should be changed to "Don't want to know, and don't care."

[Daniel]

I dont think they are saying that they will be shouting from the roof tops that they are queer and here. They just want to be able to not have to pretend they are straight to serve. If the person is competent and willing to do their job to the fullest, I have no problem personally.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Daniel

[Guest Ghostrider]

I respectfully disagree. The whole "gay movement" wants to shout it from the rooftops, they want to dress in drag (at the very least) and be open and blatant about it and stick it in your face. I didn't use to feel that way, and I served 20 with some very, VERY professional gay soldiers. I knew, everyone knew, no one said ****, and life went on professionally.

But if it's open, then it can't be criticized. I'd say it won't be two weeks if don't ask don't tell is repealed and some guy will show up in a female uniform, or wearing panty hose, or just a jock, or something.

If IF they can keep it to themselves - like most hetero guys can, I don't care, but it just seems to go with the obsession on men that they have to shout it out and sport it.

[Guest Ghostrider]

Oh, and what happens when you have men holding hands and kissing (out of uniform) in the PX? or the commissary? or necking in the movies on base? What then?

[Rock.45]

I could not disagree any more with Junglist. We had open 10 or 12 man showers , now if you was to put one woman in that shower with 11 man , well enough said . On the same note one queer and 11 good men I think you have a problem also.

[Daniel]

Oh, and what happens when you have men holding hands and kissing (out of uniform) in the PX? or the commissary? or necking in the movies on base? What then?

you arent allowed to do that as hetero's tmk. pda is frowned upon period.

[Daniel]

I could not disagree any more with Junglist. We had open 10 or 12 man showers , now if you was to put one woman in that shower with 11 man , well enough said . On the same note one queer and 11 straight(the obvious jab that gays arent "good men" is pretty irrational) men I think you have a problem also.

i'd wager that you already had 11 hetero and 1 homo in those showers tbh.

My last couple months I was moved to HQ and worked with our training nco. He was an excellent soldier, technically and tactically proficient. I would have no problem with him fighting beside me. I also believe that the man was gay but he did not let his sexual preference get in the way of his professional duties. Flamboyantly gay people would not conform to military lifestyle just like jimi hendrix did not conform. They would be put out as being unfit accordingly.

Edited November 19, 2008 by Daniel

[Rock.45]

Maybe, but he wasn't aroused or his ass was on the block in 72 hours or less not to mention the ass kick-in .

[Mark@Sea]

My problem with it is that I'm in an industrial environment (shipboard) 24-7. We all live aboard, eat aboard, work aboard. Nicks, cuts, abrasions happen. I'm not scared of gays, but I am afraid of HIV exposure - and this isn't like having them as neighbors, or walking past them in the street. The military is its' own walking blood supply.

[Guest Ghostrider]

you arent allowed to do that as hetero's tmk. pda is frowned upon period.

Out of uniform, I always held hands with the wife or gf, from pv2 to 1sg - and no one ever said word one to me. I've only seen problems when one or both are in uniform... YMMV - just my experience.

[molonlabetn]

My problem with it is that I'm in an industrial environment (shipboard) 24-7. We all live aboard, eat aboard, work aboard. Nicks, cuts, abrasions happen. I'm not scared of gays, but I am afraid of HIV exposure - and this isn't like having them as neighbors, or walking past them in the street. The military is its' own walking blood supply.

That is an excellent point... and the only one I need to be totally against allowing such behavior in such a critical environment. Otherwise I wouldn't really care.

[Guest Ghostrider]

My problem with it is that I'm in an industrial environment (shipboard) 24-7. We all live aboard, eat aboard, work aboard. Nicks, cuts, abrasions happen. I'm not scared of gays, but I am afraid of HIV exposure - and this isn't like having them as neighbors, or walking past them in the street. The military is its' own walking blood supply.

I agree with you Mark - fluid contact is a scary business. Not to sound like I'm defending them, but all the guys that I knew that were gay just didn't donate - no one forced them - everyone understood.

If being gay is "legit" however, that could change.

[Daniel]

My problem with it is that I'm in an industrial environment (shipboard) 24-7. We all live aboard, eat aboard, work aboard. Nicks, cuts, abrasions happen. I'm not scared of gays, but I am afraid of HIV exposure - and this isn't like having them as neighbors, or walking past them in the street. The military is its' own walking blood supply.

We receive hiv testing.

[323ssplt]

I have to side with Junglist on this. I've been in the marines a little less than a decade now, and I know I've served with a couple of gay guys. They did their job as well or better than many of the straight guys. The gays that join the military are the quiet ones anyway, they don't want to be marching in gay pride parades, they just want to live their life, and serve their country at the same time. ANd when I got shot, the Navy physical therapoist that helped me was GAYYYYYYY, but he did an amzing job with me, helped save my leg, helped get me walking again, and helped me get back on a full duty status (otherwise I was going to be medically discharged).....I say.keep Don't ask don't tell just the way it is and let's move on to more important issues.like how bad Obama is going to screw up the military..

[323ssplt]

One more thing....as to the disease issue..really....have you seen what these young men and women in our military do when on Libbo.........Hell, most of them I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole. My wife is a combat medic in the Army, and the stories I've heard from her.....make you want to lose your lunch

[Tim Nunan]

My problem with it is that I'm in an industrial environment (shipboard) 24-7. We all live aboard, eat aboard, work aboard. Nicks, cuts, abrasions happen. I'm not scared of gays, but I am afraid of HIV exposure - and this isn't like having them as neighbors, or walking past them in the street. The military is its' own walking blood supply.

With the spread of HIV into the heterosexual communtiy this threat is there with or without a homosexual in the military.

[Guest truthsayer]

Wow... Some of the responses in this thread make me want to quit posting here, and I'm a heterosexual/Republican/Christian.

Seriously, folks. There are some posts in this thread that are inches away from calling for a ban on Jews because they're stingy and a ban on Hispanics because they're lazy.

[DaveTN]

Wow... Some of the responses in this thread make me want to quit posting here, and I'm a heterosexual/Republican/Christian.

Seriously, folks. There are some posts in this thread that are inches away from calling for a ban on Jews because they're stingy and a ban on Hispanics because they're lazy.

Jews and Hispanics (Religion or Nationality) have nothing to do with it; unless they are gay Jews or Hispanics.

Gays are a group of people committing immoral acts and then wanting a “protected status†because of it.

Infidelity is (or use to be) grounds to kick a Military Officer out; why would being gay be acceptable?

“Morally offensive conduct†should be grounds for dismissal from a job or from the military if the employer so desires and makes it clear that is a condition of employment.