Fed Appeals Court Says Illegal Aliens Have 2A Rights

[gun sane]

Because you take up space in America, you are entitled to Second Amendment right protection, even if you are here illegally. Look for a Form 4473 revision soon.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/25/7th-circuit-court-illegal-immigrants-have-second-amendment-rights-too/

[Dolomite_supafly]

But they do not have the right to buy them legally. Just like the the fact that even though the 19th amendment allows women to vote. It's it doesn't mean ALL women can vote.

[Oh Shoot]

But they do not have the right to buy them legally. Just like the the fact that even though the 19th amendment allows women to vote. It's it doesn't mean ALL women can vote.

 

Federal law says they can not possess them, period.

 

- OS

[polecat]

All this crap really is starting to piss me off. Both of my Grandfathers entered the country Legally in 1914. Both fought in World War I. My grandpa on my dads side spent a year in a VA hospital after being gassed with Mustard gas. And both had to wait until the 1930's and pass a test before they were granted citizenship. I don't understand why it was not okay back then to make folks prove themselves then but it is now. What a mess. They do not have the right unless they are Legal. Period. I do not agree that any of our constitutional rights automatically apply to those in the country ILLEGALLY.  Legal but not a citizen yet then yes. 

 

end of rant   :usa:

Edited August 27, 2015 by polecat

[Omega]

Either you support the 2nd Amendment for all or you don't support the 2nd Amendment.  We yell and scream that they are taking our God Given Rights away when they pass gun laws yet now we want to put qualifiers on them?  If your position is that these are rights we are born with, then why does it not apply to other human beings?

[Dolomite_supafly]

The right to carry a firearm is NOT a right anyone is born with, the right of self defense is. Man gave us the right to carry a firearm, not God.

[Omega]

The right to carry a firearm is NOT a right anyone is born with, the right of self defense is. Man gave us the right to carry a firearm, not God.

So we should all be armed with pepper spray for SD?

[monkeylizard]

Either you support the 2nd Amendment for all or you don't support the 2nd Amendment.  We yell and scream that they are taking our God Given Rights away when they pass gun laws yet now we want to put qualifiers on them?  If your position is that these are rights we are born with, then why does it not apply to other human beings?

 

God Given Rights are not a part of the US Constitution. God or any other higher being is not mentioned at all. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created with certain inalienable rights from the Creator, among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution is man's attempt at soldifying those rights as best he can for "we the people of the United States." It then hangs on who exactly that includes. Only citizens? Visiting foreigners? Spouses of citizens? Green-card holding immigrants? Illegal aliens?

[E4 No More]

God Given Rights are not a part of the US Constitution. God or any other higher being is not mentioned at all. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created with certain inalienable rights from the Creator, among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution is man's attempt at soldifying those rights as best he can for "we the people of the United States." It then hangs on who exactly that includes. Only citizens? Visiting foreigners? Spouses of citizens? Green-card holding immigrants? Illegal aliens?

You forgot to mention terrorists too.

[Omega]

God Given Rights are not a part of the US Constitution. God or any other higher being is not mentioned at all. The Declaration of Independence states that all men are created with certain inalienable rights from the Creator, among them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The Constitution is man's attempt at soldifying those rights as best he can for "we the people of the United States." It then hangs on who exactly that includes. Only citizens? Visiting foreigners? Spouses of citizens? Green-card holding immigrants? Illegal aliens?

From this link, there are others but it does a good job of explaining that the Declaration of Independence is based off of "inalienable rights" and the Constitution attempts to codify those rights.

 

"The legal philosophy known as Declarationism seeks to incorporate the natural rights philosophy of the United States Declaration of Independence into the body of American case law on a level with the United States Constitution, since the unanimously agreed upon Doctrines of the Declaration of Independence is the foundational authority upon which the People and the Continental Congress of the 13 British Colonies of America based their power to legitimately separate from England and establish its own government (i.e. the Constitution of the United States). Declarationism philosophy, therefore, insists that if the United States rejects the natural rights philosophy of the Declaration of Independence upon which it was founded, it of necessity becomes, retro-actively, an illegitimate government in treasonous rebellion against its rightful government of Crown and Parliament in London; and therefore, the Declaration and Constitution must be held as legally inseparable throughout the entire United States of America (both Federal and State) and its territories."

[hipower]

My personal opinion. Take it as you will.

 

Stupid, wrong ruling.

[Mike.357]

it doesn't matter if your are here illegally, 

 

Being able to defend yourself is a right you are born with.  Man may attempt to take that right from you but you still have it.  And a gun is the best method of self defense.

Absolutely everyone in the world has the right to defend themselves, gun included. Man has restricted that right.  

 

You may end up in jail for having it but you do have the right to have a gun.

[Monkeyman2500]

Either you support the 2nd Amendment for all or you don't support the 2nd Amendment. We yell and scream that they are taking our God Given Rights away when they pass gun laws yet now we want to put qualifiers on them? If your position is that these are rights we are born with, then why does it not apply to other human beings?

It applies to rights we were born with as citizens of the United States of America. For others that have entered this country illegally, from anywhere, it does not apply. As should no other rights of an American citizen apply. The right of the 2nd amendment can also be revoked for an American citizen that has committed certain crimes resulting in felony conviction. It was once a great right of passage to become an American citizen, I've had four friends who were all brothers from Mexico along with their father do it and though it was not easy they were very proud to have done it. I do not understand why many people feel that because someone just crosses the border into this country they automatically receive all the rights of a U.S. Citizen.

[btq96r]

Either you support the 2nd Amendment for all or you don't support the 2nd Amendment.  We yell and scream that they are taking our God Given Rights away when they pass gun laws yet now we want to put qualifiers on them?  If your position is that these are rights we are born with, then why does it not apply to other human beings?

 

I'm obviously not in line with the "God given" qualifier on all that, but I believe the intent of our rights extends to citizens and non-citizens alike.  The only one that stands alone is the right to vote, and the Constitution specifically addresses that by making reference to "the right of citizens...to vote" or words to that effect in the 13th and 19th Amendments, so it's a given that only citizens should be allowed to vote. 

 

With that, all the amendments are of equal weight, and should be uniformly applicable.  We wouldn't let any type of legal process fly for an undocumented immigrant, so if we're going to extend the protections of the 4th - 8th Amendments to them, why not the 2nd as well?  Unless a Constitutional guarantee is specifically listed as for a citizen, it needs to apply to anyone in the country.  That includes the 2nd.

[gun sane]

To quote the Preamble to the Consitution:

 

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

 

Who does "the people of the United States" refer to--citizens or illegal aliens?

 

What kind of justice is established--that based upon the law or upon men's social feelings?

 

What insurance company pays if "insured domestic tranquility" results in riots and pandemonium?

 

How can we have a "common defence" if SCOTUS says that police are not constitutionally bound to protect us and the military can't be armed on U.S. bases?

 

Where's my "general welfare" check?

 

To me, the blessings of liberty aren't fully secure and our posterity seems to be hanging out in the breeze.

Edited August 27, 2015 by gun sane

[monkeylizard]

The definition of "we the people" has changed over the life of this country. It originally meant white land-owning men. Maybe as a cerebral concept of law it included others, but in actual practice it did not. Maybe we're in another of those times like the abolition of slavery or women's suffrage as far as expanding the definition.

[polecat]

I do not agree that any of our constitutional rights automatically apply to those in the country ILLEGALLY.  Legally in the country but not a citizen yet then maybe yes.  Citizenship used to be  privilege for those not born here. Apparently the court feels that just being here is a "right". Might as well end the debate and let them vote too.  Give anyone who got here from another country automatic citizenship. Just send em up to the DMV.

[monkeylizard]

There was a time when people felt the same way about women, minorities, and the uneducated masses, at least about certain rights.

[E4 No More]

I'm obviously not in line with the "God given" qualifier on all that, but I believe the intent of our rights extends to citizens and non-citizens alike.  The only one that stands alone is the right to vote, and the Constitution specifically addresses that by making reference to "the right of citizens...to vote" or words to that effect in the 13th and 19th Amendments, so it's a given that only citizens should be allowed to vote. 

 

With that, all the amendments are of equal weight, and should be uniformly applicable.  We wouldn't let any type of legal process fly for an undocumented immigrant, so if we're going to extend the protections of the 4th - 8th Amendments to them, why not the 2nd as well?  Unless a Constitutional guarantee is specifically listed as for a citizen, it needs to apply to anyone in the country.  That includes the 2nd.

So a right to a fair trail with a jury of our peers would mean that we'd need to recruit some terrorists to sit in a jury box when they go to trial, right?

[Glenn]

What part of illegal is so damn hard to understand? We citizens can lose our rights for minor transgressions. Coming into the country illegally is a crime

[Wingshooter]

Illegal aliens have no right to be in this country, hence the word "ILLEGAL". The Constitution governs the peolple here Legally. The Constitution and the Fed are supposed to protect us from the illegals not arm them within our borders. I agree that any and everyone in the world should be able to defend themselves, but what does that have to do with the 2A that exists for the citizens of the USA? You want the benefits of the USA's constitution and 2A, then go through the proper channels of LEGAL immigration.

This country's legal system and government is going insane.

[Monkeyman2500]

I think this is a record keeping problem as much as anything. A US citizen has a pretty good criminal and mental health background records, not great by any means, but good. A non US citizen on the other hand may have very little if,any at all. It would be very hard to find any history of felony type convictions as well as cross referencing them with felony level convictions in our own criminal justice system that were not considered the same in theirs. There is also the history of mental illness in which we all know well enough we can barely keep up with that here.

[East_TN_Patriot]

The rights expressed in the Constitution are human rights that are possessed by all people; we just happen to live in a country that chose to express that in a very concrete way by making it the foundation of our government.  It's interesting to see people who claim to believe in the right of people to own firearms for self-protection so quick to deny that right to certain people in our society.

[Dolomite_supafly]

The use of firearms for self defense is not a basic human right, it is a privilege given to us by our fellow man and that privilege can easily be taken away by those who gave it to us. A right is something that cannot be legally taken away which firearms can and are being taken away. No one can legislate away a man's right to self defense but they can take away that man's privilege of using a firearm for self defense.

 

Self defense is a basic human right but the tool you use is not part of it.

 

Illegal aliens, even if they are murdering psychopaths here illegally, still have the right to self defense but their right to use a firearm in THIS country should not, and is not, allowed. When they decide to break the law by entering the country illegally they forfeit all rights afforded to citizens of this country. Now if they want to enter legally then they should have all the same rights as any other person here legally.

[macville]

The rights expressed in the Constitution are human rights that are possessed by all people; we just happen to live in a country that chose to express that in a very concrete way by making it the foundation of our government.  It's interesting to see people who claim to believe in the right of people to own firearms for self-protection so quick to deny that right to certain people in our society.

 

That's not entirely accurate. We don't allow non-citizens to vote, so obviously not all the rights are "human rights." So the constitution is not fully applied even to a lot of people who are here legally. 

 

The problem is that those "certain people in our society" are actually criminals. We don't trust criminals with guns here, so why should we trust those criminals with guns? I understand where you are coming from with your argument, but the fact that they broke our, I believe justified, immigration laws, shows lack of good judgement.