I have a question for everyone.

[Hershmeister]

I am considering burying a septic tank and routing my gutter water runoff into it (only!). I figure this gives me 1000 or so gallons of storage in a concrete cistern, and i can put a riser on it so i can mount a pump into it (solar electric). I can use this for landscaping and garden purposes. Anyone ever heard of something like this?

[Wingshooter]

Just a plastic, food safe barrel set under your eves or even out in the open will collect water with ZERO effort. And survival is about economy of motion, do as little as needed to survive. Never empty the barrel and just let is over flow as it rains. You will ALWAYS have at least enough water to survive about a month if you do that. 
 
All it would need is disinfected and you can do that with some calcium hypochlorite. CH is nothing more than a dry form of bleach so it will last a lot longer than liquid bleach. Liquid bleach turns into salt water within about a year. But with CH you can store it in a cool, dry place and it will last forever. Mix up some with the rain water to dissolve the CH then pour it back into the barrel and let it set for a few hours before drinking. Just make sure you cannot smell a strong bleach smell, it should be about like a pool or less. Which brings me to where you can buy CH. Pool supply stores sell it as a shock or maintenance supplies but make sure it is CH and not some of the other chemicals they use in pools. Some of it can be very dangerous if you are not careful.
 
Or use something every prepper or survivalist should have which is a way to filter water to remove pathogens.
 
BTW, the military uses CH to make their water potable.
 
And finally the sun will also disinfect the water, as long as it is clear. Place the water in a clear container, it can be plastic or glass, and set it out in the sun. The natural UV light will pass through the containers killing all pathogens in about 8 hours. No need for chemicals, filters or anything else so long as you have time to let the water "cook".
 
I really need to talk to a few neighbors about all of this but I am afraid they are going to think I am a nut case.

That's some good info. I need to start catching rain water. We have a natural spring on the property, some stored drinking water and two 55gal water heaters in the house. I feel comfortable with our water, but there's no reason for me not to have a catch system in place as well.

[TMF]

Those who defend the fort will die at the fort. 

 

 

Mobility. Travel light. 

 

Trust no one.

 

You think you'll be safer on the move, in a country of no law and dwindling resources?  No, I'll take my chances in a place defensible with resources.  I've carried heavy things long distances.  You simply can't carry enough to survive long, and if you think you're going to "hunt" your dinner when 350,000,000 are trying to do the same thing, you're in for an empty belly.  White tail deer would go extinct in less than a month.  Birds, squirrels, rabbits, dogs, cats.... they'd be gone soon after. 

 

I know what it's like to be out in the wilderness and only be able to eat or drink what you can find.  It isn't easy.  It's harder in the winter.  I would reckon impossible when tens of millions of people are trying to do the same thing you are.

[Spots]

Those who defend the fort will die at the fort.


Mobility. Travel light.

Trust no one.

Wells full of water. Renewable food in the form of a garden, game, hogs, chickens, goats and cattle. Draft animals to farm and for transport. Blacksmith shop for repair work and barter material. Heavily built log cabins miles away from population centers that would take one hell of a pounding. Resourceful family full of survivors at my back. I'll take my chances at the fort. I was born and raised on that land, just like my daddy and his daddy, and back past the civil war. Seems like just as good a place to die as any if it comes to that.

Sent from behind the anvil

[DWARREN123]

I would be lacking quite a bit but I have the will and ammo to take stuff from the dems/libs so I should not have to worry too much!   :rofl:

[Shepherd Master]

You think you'll be safer on the move, in a country of no law and dwindling resources?  No, I'll take my chances in a place defensible with resources.  I've carried heavy things long distances.  You simply can't carry enough to survive long, and if you think you're going to "hunt" your dinner when 350,000,000 are trying to do the same thing, you're in for an empty belly.  White tail deer would go extinct in less than a month.  Birds, squirrels, rabbits, dogs, cats.... they'd be gone soon after. 

 

I know what it's like to be out in the wilderness and only be able to eat or drink what you can find.  It isn't easy.  It's harder in the winter.  I would reckon impossible when tens of millions of people are trying to do the same thing you are.

I left the Tampa area 8 years ago, Largo, first 40 years of my life there. 

 

Without going too deep here- 

 

Word says when you see the 'abomination of desolation' flee to the mountains. Most believe this to be an event, to those in Jerusalem it is, but it is more of a process. The phrase means exactly what it states, when God is removed from the land the land is left Desolate, and it is. 

 

I back up to 10s of thousands of national forest, springs and caves. 

 

 

You are correct about food sources long term. You will have less than three days supply......then it is a matter of time. You have no way out. 

 

 

Lawlessness? absolutely. 

 

 

Christians believe they will be 'raptured' out, they will not. Word states that those who 'endure to the end' will receive salvation. (reference the end of life or the end of days- tribulation)

I intend to survive. 

 

 

See and understand "Jacob's Trouble" and understand who Jacob is........it is us, the West. 

 

 

 

I have two daughters and one remains in Largo. I've had numerous discussions with her and told her that when I make the call- she will have less than 12 hours to get to me, otherwise I cannot help her. She thinks I'm a nut, as would any other 30 year old. 

 

 

Tough times ahead, could be tomorrow, could be 20 years from now. 

 

 

Be it the gov or marauders or the nice christian family down the road.......they'll come to kill you for what you have, just a matter of how long you can hold up.

 

 

I have a wife and a 10 year old son, we will fight to survive one day at a time. 

 

 

Edit:

 

We will all have about 2 weeks before wholesale panic sets in. It will also take the gov about that long to move troops and set up corridors. We have plenty of food to get us through the initial stages and time to think and plan and execute. 

Mental preparedness is key.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Shepherd Master

[TMF]

I don't understand the assumption that any catastrophic event in the US must have some biblical connotation to it.  Be it from economic collapse or natural disaster, things like this happen all throughout history.  The only difference is now you're potentially living through it, so man's self centered view of the cosmos extends to time itself, I guess. 

 

I wish you the best of luck out in the wilderness.  You won't be alone.  The forests of our continent won't be as you remember them in peacetime.  Hell, you can't stroll through the forest during deer season without running into several people.  I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that when there is a shortage of food, every good 'ol boy and city slicker with a hungry belly and a boomstick will be crashing through the woods thinking he's smarter than all the rest of us.  Good luck with that.  Hopefully one of the few thousand people competing with you in the forest don't raid your campsite and kill you in your sleep.

 

Also, hunting on a full stomach (if you've eaten in the past 24 hours, you have a full stomach), versus hunting after not eating for several days is very different.  Wanna test this theory?  Great!  It's always good to be prepared.  Don't eat for 3 days, and no cheating.  Water is the only thing you're allowed.  Now, go to the forest for a couple of days and only eat what you can dig up or kill.  You'll find that it isn't easy.  You will expend more calories foraging than you will replace with what you find.  You'll notice that you can't walk very far without getting tired and having to rest.  That's where you'll learn that starvation in the wilderness is an exponential event.  But hey, what do I know?

 

I may die in my home.  But I will die with a roof over my head, my wife and kids at my side, a full belly, and a pile of expended brass and dead bodies at my feet.

[Shepherd Master]

I don't understand the assumption that any catastrophic event in the US must have some biblical connotation to it.  Be it from economic collapse or natural disaster, things like this happen all throughout history.  The only difference is now you're potentially living through it, so man's self centered view of the cosmos extends to time itself, I guess. 

 

I wish you the best of luck out in the wilderness.  You won't be alone.  The forests of our continent won't be as you remember them in peacetime.  Hell, you can't stroll through the forest during deer season without running into several people.  I don't see why it's so difficult to understand that when there is a shortage of food, every good 'ol boy and city slicker with a hungry belly and a boomstick will be crashing through the woods thinking he's smarter than all the rest of us.  Good luck with that.  Hopefully one of the few thousand people competing with you in the forest don't raid your campsite and kill you in your sleep.

 

Also, hunting on a full stomach (if you've eaten in the past 24 hours, you have a full stomach), versus hunting after not eating for several days is very different.  Wanna test this theory?  Great!  It's always good to be prepared.  Don't eat for 3 days, and no cheating.  Water is the only thing you're allowed.  Now, go to the forest for a couple of days and only eat what you can dig up or kill.  You'll find that it isn't easy.  You will expend more calories foraging than you will replace with what you find.  You'll notice that you can't walk very far without getting tired and having to rest.  That's where you'll learn that starvation in the wilderness is an exponential event.  But hey, what do I know?

 

I may die in my home.  But I will die with a roof over my head, my wife and kids at my side, a full belly, and a pile of expended brass and dead bodies at my feet.

 

 

 

It doesn't. 

 

But I study the bible, the WHOLE bible. 

 

And I study current events, worldwide. 

 

I pay attention to who is doing what and who who really is, not who who tells you they are. 

 

I'm not a end-of-the-worlder but I understand where we are in world history and what the bible says about it. 

 

 

 

IF! and that's a big IF.... the world ends as you know it, there will be no recovery, no coming back, not this time. 

 

 

This, whatever this is, will be unlike anything known to man.

 

And I'm skeptical that it will happen in my lifetime, likely in my son's lifetime. So, I teach him who is enemy is, so he will recognize him, and dispatch him.

[Randall53]

I'm sure this won't be popular, but I truly think the our downfall will be severe damage and complete loss of the grid. If our nation is a body, the grid is the brain. Kill the brain and the body will die. My past career dealt with various parts of power generation and I can tell you we are very vulnerable and nobody in Washington cares. If it happens it's not going to be a short term event. It will depend on the extent of damage, but with a well planned attack or an EMP by a rouge nation, it will be for years if not permanent. It will be devastating and I really don't think any of us are prepared for that. For the most part, we have become a fat, lazy nation. Most of you know as well as I do that death and disease would take over every city and town. Some might can survive, but it will be like living the the 1700's again if this happens. Most won't be able to do it.

[Hershmeister]

I'm sure this won't be popular, but I truly think the our downfall will be severe damage and complete loss of the grid. If our nation is a body, the grid is the brain. Kill the brain and the body will die. My past career dealt with various parts of power generation and I can tell you we are very vulnerable and nobody in Washington cares. If it happens it's not going to be a short term event. It will depend on the extent of damage, but with a well planned attack or an EMP by a rouge nation, it will be for years if not permanent. It will be devastating and I really don't think any of us are prepared for that. For the most part, we have become a fat, lazy nation. Most of you know as well as I do that death and disease would take over every city and town. Some might can survive, but it will be like living the the 1700's again if this happens. Most won't be able to do it.

This scenario scares the living crap out of me.
Dropping back into the early 19th century would be devastating. No electricity = no refrigeration; thus limited ways to store food safely, no modern medicine production, thus no antibiotics for infections, sickness is deadly, not enough food. Its a horrible scenario to imagine

[TMF]

It doesn't. 

 

But I study the bible, the WHOLE bible. 

 

And I study current events, worldwide. 

 

I pay attention to who is doing what and who who really is, not who who tells you they are. 

 

I'm not a end-of-the-worlder but I understand where we are in world history and what the bible says about it. 

 

 

 

IF! and that's a big IF.... the world ends as you know it, there will be no recovery, no coming back, not this time. 

 

 

This, whatever this is, will be unlike anything known to man.

 

And I'm skeptical that it will happen in my lifetime, likely in my son's lifetime. So, I teach him who is enemy is, so he will recognize him, and dispatch him.

 

At any given time somewhere on the planet, people are experiencing what most Americans would interpret as end days, if it were happening to them.  All over the continent of Africa there is brutal war, genocide and famine.  If we saw that on our shores, the average person would believe that the end of time is upon us, when it is really just our turn.  So in this context, I prepare for probability, not prophecy.  I have several courses of action which I can take based on the situation which put me in a higher bracket of survivability than the average person. 

 

Nothing is 100%, but I won't fool myself into thinking that just because I know how to survive in the wilderness means I can survive in the wilderness when millions of others are trying to do the same.

 

I also understand that it is in our DNA to develop mutually beneficial relationships with other humans for survival.  This means that the average person is more likely to work out peaceful solutions than risk their life kicking in your door for some twinkies.  In most situations where a government breaks down and there is a period of lawlessness, it doesn't last long.  The primary perpetrators are younger males with no family, or no sense of responsibility to their families.  It's a small, but violent segment of society.  Most people will have people they need to provide food, shelter and security for, and will quickly understand that security is a communal concept in an environment of anarchy.  It is the natural default organization of small communities around the world.  The US would be no different in the absence of government control.

[Spots]

This scenario scares the living crap out of me.
Dropping back into the early 19th century would be devastating. No electricity = no refrigeration; thus limited ways to store food safely, no modern medicine production, thus no antibiotics for infections, sickness is deadly, not enough food. Its a horrible scenario to imagine

This is one of the big reasons I look more at a home steadiness view than a bug out view. Learning and living a life style where these conditions can be dealt with a is a life.long experince. That's why I farm with horses, blacksmith with limited power tools, and listen when my old man teaches me how to build a log cabin, plant by the signs, read the weather, can vegetables, kill and cure meat and all the other skills lost over time. It can be done, but most people will be lost without their smartphone and a flushing toliet.

Sent from behind the anvil

[Randall53]

This scenario scares the living crap out of me.
Dropping back into the early 19th century would be devastating. No electricity = no refrigeration; thus limited ways to store food safely, no modern medicine production, thus no antibiotics for infections, sickness is deadly, not enough food. Its a horrible scenario to imagine

 

Yes it is. My true belief is that there would be no return. So many would die that the ability to rebuild would be gone. No electricity, no fuel, no food, no water and 300 million people?

[TMF]

I'm sure this won't be popular, but I truly think the our downfall will be severe damage and complete loss of the grid. If our nation is a body, the grid is the brain. Kill the brain and the body will die. My past career dealt with various parts of power generation and I can tell you we are very vulnerable and nobody in Washington cares. If it happens it's not going to be a short term event. It will depend on the extent of damage, but with a well planned attack or an EMP by a rouge nation, it will be for years if not permanent. It will be devastating and I really don't think any of us are prepared for that. For the most part, we have become a fat, lazy nation. Most of you know as well as I do that death and disease would take over every city and town. Some might can survive, but it will be like living the the 1700's again if this happens. Most won't be able to do it.

 

I don't see how such an event could be permanent.  We constructed this modern, intricate grid in less than a century.  We have more know how than when we started.  Also, after reading One Second After, I did some reading on how devastating an EMP attack or extreme solar event would be against our grid.  From what I gathered, it would not be as it is presented in literature and on Alex Jones sites, with all electronics and the power grid being fried.  I'm no expert on the subject, but I've read conflicting articles on it, and it seems the articles which play down the threat are well written by people who seem to have a firm grasp on what they're talking about, whilst the articles which predict doom and gloom are written by people who sell ad space to prepper websites, and present opinion as fact.  Just my observation.

[Randall53]

I don't know a thing about Alex Jones, but I did work in power production. The grid is a highly synchronized power source and it takes vast amounts of electronics and computers to keep it humming along. Everything in power production revolves around huge power transformers and power generators. Everything else in a powerhouse or substation are made to protect them. These items are very fickle and susceptible to catastrophic failure. They are not an on the shelf item. They are made to order with a 2 year turn around time to be built and another 6 to 9 months to be installed. Even in the simplest terms, it takes electricity to build them. It takes fuel for trucks to transport them and for cranes to install them. A grid failure would take all of this away and take years to repair if these shortcoming could be overcome. I realize this scenario is downplayed by many and there have been some improvements, but as a whole, the gird overloaded and very neglected. I'm sure they have their reasons for denying this though.

[Wingshooter]

My biggest concern is that I live within 12-15 miles east of Sequoyah nuke plant! I have a great place to bug in, but that doesn't matter if the nuke plant melts down. How vulnerable are the nuke plants (sequoya and watts bar in particular) to a power grid disruption?

[peejman]

My biggest concern is that I live within 12-15 miles east of Sequoyah nuke plant! I have a great place to bug in, but that doesn't matter if the nuke plant melts down. How vulnerable are the nuke plants (sequoya and watts bar in particular) to a power grid disruption?

Not very. They have back-up generators and batteries. They just shut down, stop making power, and let the core cool off. Its something they practice routinely.

[Wingshooter]

Not very. They have back-up generators and batteries. They just shut down, stop making power, and let the core cool off. Its something they practice routinely.

Good to know

[Randall53]

Peejman nailed it. A lot happens, but redundant systems are in place for everything and it's all automatic, but everything can be done manually if needed.

[Wingshooter]

Peejman nailed it. A lot happens, but redundant systems are in place for everything and it's all automatic, but everything can be done manually if needed.

That's good because I would hate to have to leave my ideal bug-in location for that reason.

[Oh Shoot]

I don't see how such an event could be permanent.  We constructed this modern, intricate grid in less than a century.  We have more know how than when we started. ..

 

Yep, that's the main thing. The current generation might well see things as the "end of days", but assuming there are at least tens of million of folks still around after all the initial panic and dieoff, even starting from almost "scratch",  1930's or better conditions would likely be accomplished again in a generation or two, at least where people chose to congregate and work together.

 

Disease would probably become the biggest single life limiter for a good long while. Hell, just lack of sanitation will bring back several our old adversaries -- cholera,  typhoid, various dysentery conditions, whatever. All kinds of other stuff we routinely immunize against. Diptheria, tetanus, etc. Maybe yellow fever in the southern states. All kinds of stuff that's kept at bay these days through immunization, sewage control, insect control, whatever. And without the drugs to treat them when they do occur.

 

Obviously, folks with conditions that require drugs simply to survive, wouldn't. On the other hand, some conditions, like Type II diabetes in particular, would be virtually eliminated for a good long time span,  probably much fewer heart attacks and stokes at earlier ages, etc.

 

- OS

Edited October 9, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[rmiddle]

I don't see how such an event could be permanent.  We constructed this modern, intricate grid in less than a century.  We have more know how than when we started.  Also, after reading One Second After, I did some reading on how devastating an EMP attack or extreme solar event would be against our grid.  From what I gathered, it would not be as it is presented in literature and on Alex Jones sites, with all electronics and the power grid being fried.  I'm no expert on the subject, but I've read conflicting articles on it, and it seems the articles which play down the threat are well written by people who seem to have a firm grasp on what they're talking about, whilst the articles which predict doom and gloom are written by people who sell ad space to prepper websites, and present opinion as fact.  Just my observation.

 

Permanent unlikely but if it was bad enough to take out a large percentage of the infrastructure it would take a lot of time to repair it.  Just look at the events of 2003 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003 ).  Power was out for at least a week for some people and it was a software glitch that cause that.

 

Think about what happens if something blow out 50% of the transformers in the US how long will it take to rebuild the grid and that is assuming that large areas of the county don't turn into war zones that requires the power company to work around those areas.    

 

Most of the major cities without power would be burning in under a week of the power going down.  With so many hot zones the military is the only one who could be called in to stop the bleeding in the largest cities.  Even the military isn't large enough to handle everywhere that means many smaller areas would be left to their own devices.  

 

Many smaller areas wouldn't get power restored for months maybe even years and the grid wouldn't be stable for a least a decade.  

 

All this assumes we can come up with the huge amount of money that would be required to get the grid back up.  Money that the government doesn't have.

 

Thanks

Robert

[ehull20000]

This scenario assumes that our agricultural exports as well as those of Canada would cease to be strategically important to the rest of the globe after such an event occured.  If North American agriculture stops there would be a food crises in many countries, and global food prices would be effected.   I predict that we would be aided by our stronger allies to fix the grid because that would restore global stability and in turn security in much of the world.  I would hope so anyway.  

 

Certainly in the short term we would be hosed, but the long term impacts would be too disastrous for the rest of the planet to not help in some shape or form.  Probably. 

[JPS]

I predict that we would be aided by our stronger allies to fix the grid because that would restore global stability and in turn security in much of the world.

 

 

Or, invaded by stronger enemies to solve their food crisis.

[East_TN_Patriot]

I could definitely stand to stockpile more food.

 

On a related note, a question I have is this: do you think people would come together an share resources or would people just hoard what they have?  In other words, wouldn't a community of like-minded people come together, pool their collective knowledge and resources in a real SHTF scenario?  It seems to be the nature of humanity to do this for mutual benefit and to protect their resources from those who seek to take from others.