Armed citizens guarding recruitment centers - legal?

[Hozzie]

They are Oath Keepers. Isn't that enough?

Not like the oath dem politicians take, real oaths to the country.

 

I certainly think some are oath keepers, but I have no idea how many and I suspect Bersa doesn't either.  I find statements like "Many other members have been through extensive training courses" to be laughable.  He is making a jump that most of these guys are oath keepers and that many have extensive training.    I am saying unless he can show me some facts on these statements that they just ring hollow.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not against what any of these guys are doing, I just don't think it's the smartest way to go about it, but that's just my opinion.  I am not stating my opinion as fact either, but I think in the end, I can provide more facts to prove my point than he can his.

 

At the end of the day, I personally need facts to sway my viewpoint on any topic.   If there are facts that say these guys are highly trained, combat personnel doing this, that goes a long way to me thinking it is better than some GI Joe wanna be just wanting to walk around with his rifle to look cool to his mom.

 

And on the Dem Politician statement, I find that laughable as well.  If you would have just said Politican, I would agree with it, but to say it is just Dem's is funny.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Hozzie

[Ugly]

Gotcha and understand.

Good point about the dem politician statement, I agree completely.

[EssOne]

About thirty years ago I was a young Highway Patrolman working a hot four lane on the west coast about 25 miles out of town when I got after a new sedan going well over a hundred miles an hour. I finally caught up to him and as he pulled over I ran his plate and found out the car was stolen before we were even stopped. There were three rather mean looking men in the car who later turned out to be wanted all over the state. So as we stopped I rolled out the driver's door and down behind it with the shotgun and began giving them instructions. My biggest concern at the time was that they would pile out the right side and start shooting since I ..............

 

About the time all of this was racing through my mind, I heard a metallic "clink" from behind me. I took a really quick look back and what I saw is still with me today...........a muddy old Chevy pickup had pulled in behind me, and two ranch hands from a lemon ranch up the road were standing alongside their headlights holding muddy irrigation shovels at port arms, ready to charge the badguys if need be. They weren't about to leave, either - they stayed there until my backup arrived about ten minutes later, naked to any gunfire that might have come their way. They were determined that no badass alive was going to take out one of their cops without a fight, even if it had to be with muddy irrigation shovels.

 

Yes, people really do that kind of thing. Just take a look out in front of our Recruiting Stations and I'm quite sure you'll see their modern day equivalent - standing there totally exposed in a job they were never trained to do, determined that no badass alive will get to one of their GI's without a fight, and knowing that they probably don't have a prayer of winning.

 

Give credit where credit is due.

[Mike.357]

so has this passed?  Are there still people standing out front of these places?

[bersaguy]

And just how did you come to this conclusion? Any facts, or just your wishful thinking? Bersa, I don't mean offense, but you throw out an awful lot of opinions as facts with absolutely zero to back it up. Just because some GI Joe wanna be has a single point sling doesn't mean he has military training.

From what I have seen, most of these guys look like they have zero training. I am not saying what they are doing isn't good intentioned, but I believe most have just made themselves sitting targets. Someone with any training wouldn't do that.

Edited August 3, 2015 by bersaguy

[Mike.357]

Bersaguy that link draws a blank on my end

[bersaguy]

And just how did you come to this conclusion? Any facts, or just your wishful thinking? Bersa, I don't mean offense, but you throw out an awful lot of opinions as facts with absolutely zero to back it up. Just because some GI Joe wanna be has a single point sling doesn't mean he has military training.

From what I have seen, most of these guys look like they have zero training. I am not saying what they are doing isn't good intentioned, but I believe most have just made themselves sitting targets. Someone with any training wouldn't do that.

I hope this will help explain how I know about this and I try to post only facts about things of this plus I am a member of Oath Keepers.

 

http://oathkeepers.org/oktester/critical-update-and-clarification-on-operation-protect-the-protectors-from-stewart-rhodes/

[monkeylizard]

All that answers for me is that Oath Keepers is involved in the activity and that an indeterminate percentage of participants are Oath Keepers. I see nothing to support  the claim that "most of the civilians that are stepping up are retired vets."

[Hozzie]

Bersa, I appreciate the link, but it still doesn't get to the root of the issue.  I never said there weren't Oath Keepers participating, and I am sure they are sending out info and updates regularly.  The issue comes with stating the majority of these people have extensive training and are the majority of people that are at these sites.

 

While I believe some may have some training, I don't believe the majority have extensive training.  I don't have any facts to back that up, but I am also not stating it in such a way that it comes across as stating a fact.

 

I am glad you are an oath keeper, I respect that decision.  I just hope everyone realizes that many times the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Again, I don't say that to say I am against anyone who wants to go do this, but I believe all they are doing is making themselves a sitting target.  Truth be told, having one of these people in front of one of these centers could have already prevented another attack, but there is no way we will ever know.  

 

What we will undoubtedly know (and I hope this never happens) is that when a group of these guys gets killed because they were trying to help, it makes them no less dead.  I understand where EssOne is coming from with his story about two guys with shovels.  In that case, luckily nothing bad happened, but what if it did?  I expect that story would be much different today.  

 

Sometimes you do just have to stand up for what you believe.  I just want people to do it smartly and avoid unnecessary risk.  I also like to keep opinion from fact where we can.

Edited August 3, 2015 by Hozzie

[E4 No More]

Bersa, I appreciate the link, but it still doesn't get to the root of the issue.  I never said there weren't Oath Keepers participating, and I am sure they are sending out info and updates regularly.  The issue comes with stating the majority of these people have extensive training and are the majority of people that are at these sites.

 

While I believe some may have some training, I don't believe the majority have extensive training.  I don't have any facts to back that up, but I am also not stating it in such a way that it comes across as stating a fact.

 

I am glad you are an oath keeper, I respect that decision.  I just hope everyone realizes that many times the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  Again, I don't say that to say I am against anyone who wants to go do this, but I believe all they are doing is making themselves a sitting target.  Truth be told, having one of these people in front of one of these centers could have already prevented another attack, but there is no way we will ever know.  

 

What we will undoubtedly know (and I hope this never happens) is that when a group of these guys gets killed because they were trying to help, it makes them no less dead.  I understand where EssOne is coming from with his story about two guys with shovels.  In that case, luckily nothing bad happened, but what if it did?  I expect that story would be much different today.  

 

Sometimes you do just have to stand up for what you believe.  I just want people to do it smartly and avoid unnecessary risk.  I also like to keep opinion from fact where we can.

Terrorists want to cause as much damage and chaos as they can, so they are not likely to go up against these people. No one is going into a conflict with armed resistance when they can inflict more damage at a "soft" target: therefore, these people are accomplishing something, and just because there's no empirical evidence to point to doesn't mean that it's not happening.

[Hozzie]

While I don't necessarily disagree, it only takes once. Seems to me someone could pretty easily take out one of these groups if they had the desire.

[EssOne]

I grant that they are making themselves sitting targets. That's obvious. But whether risk is necessary or unnecessary and whether it should be avoided is up to them.

[Hozzie]

Totally agree.  My reason for getting into this thread from the start had nothing to do with people doing this and more directly, how they do it.  It is completely up to each individual the risk they are willing to take and how they take it.  

[E4 No More]

Personally, I would not exactly advertise my presence to the general public, but it's not like they have too many options either. It's not like Oblamo would allow the DoD to invite them into the offices to be comfortable and all. I think this is just more as an open statement of support to all as a reminder.

 

EDIT: I know all to well how quickly Americans tend to forget. I saw it firsthand in 1983.

Edited August 3, 2015 by SWJewellTN

[EssOne]

Love of country is a powerful motivator, especially after your country has been attacked. I honestly think this is at the root of why these guys stuck their necks out like that. If the same guy had gone into a big bank and shot it up during a robbery, it would have evoked an entirely different public response. But he didn't. In the eyes of these fellows he shot up the United States of America, and to a lot of folks that's still a capital offense worthy of sticking one's neck out for. That's why I can't be critical of them.

[bersaguy]

I do see your points Hozzie and can agree with many of them to a point. My point is that these men and women are doing something with a real potential danger without a doubt. yes, many of them may not be as trained as many of them are. The point is that they are willing to put themselves in Harms Way to step up and do something that our Federal Government should do and won't. When will enough be enough of terrorists Groups such as ISIS and Al Quada that have declared War on America before our So called Elected officials step up to the plate and do what is right. How many American Soldiers must die on American soil before this administration will do what is right and allow our Military to arm itself and allow our troops to do what they are trained to do and that is protect America both home and abroad? Every time one of these Lone Wolfs are successful in the name of Allah it only emboldens those that are thinking about it to act on it. I'm done with talking about this now. I just hope and pray something is done before something happens again like this............I rest my case.................. :surrender:

[E4 No More]

I do see your points Hozzie and can agree with many of them to a point. My point is that these men and women are doing something with a real potential danger without a doubt. yes, many of them may not be as trained as many of them are. The point is that they are willing to put themselves in Harms Way to step up and do something that our Federal Government should do and won't. When will enough be enough of terrorists Groups such as ISIS and Al Quada that have declared War on America before our So called Elected officials step up to the plate and do what is right. How many American Soldiers must die on American soil before this administration will do what is right and allow our Military to arm itself and allow our troops to do what they are trained to do and that is protect America both home and abroad? Every time one of these Lone Wolfs are successful in the name of Allah it only emboldens those that are thinking about it to act on it. I'm done with talking about this now. I just hope and pray something is done before something happens again like this............I rest my case.................. :surrender:

Both parties have used US military as cannon fodder from time-to-time for various, (and normally selfish), reasons. This will change nothing. The only way either side will care is if enough voters stand-up in outrage - which also will not happen.

Edited August 3, 2015 by SWJewellTN