Ashley Madison Hacked

[btq96r]

Without a religious basis, what's the point?  

 

That's not meant in either a facetious or preachy manner.  I'm simply curious as to other peoples' thinking.  I can look at it from a couple of different viewpoints, but I really find myself coming back to Fyodor Dostoyevsky who may have had a valid point when he said that, "without religion, everything is permitted."

 

At the risk of fulfilling Grand Torino's prognostication above, I think modern society has transcended the needs for controls based in religion.  Goes back to Voltaire and the line of "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."  At one point, society needed God to provide the framework.  Now, not so much.

 

Religion was a big deal when King's ruled through divine right and needed rules and laws based in religion to legitimize them, but in 21st century democracies, society has evolved where we don't need a religious themed reason for every rule.  We can recognize that it's in the interest of society to have rules and what not so we don't become savages who destroy themselves.  The line on what those rules are ebbs and flows, but it doesn't require religion for enough people to come together and decide some things should be prohibited.

 

That's not to say religion doesn't have a place, but it's best value is individual and within the faith...anything beyond what is needed for the basic functioning of society (not to be confused for what we think it should be based on our own personal beliefs) should not get copied and pasted in both word and effect into legislation that will beholden those of different faith's and non-believers to it.

Edited July 23, 2015 by btq96r

[gregintenn]

What Ted said.  I didn't need Christianity to teach me what's right and wrong.  I get that it can be helpful, but there are multiple ways to learn morality, and via religion is by no means the only one that works.

So if you pretend to not have to answer to a higher power, why do you give a crap what's right or wrong?

[btq96r]

So if you pretend to not have to answer to a higher power, why do you give a crap what's right or wrong?

 

I don't pretend I don't have to answer to a higher power, I simply don't.

 

My personal code of conduct, desire to function within society, and a healthy fear of socitial punishment (ie: jail) guide me through life.

[gjohnsoniv]

So if you pretend to not have to answer to a higher power, why do you give a crap what's right or wrong?

Because it betters one's place in society?

[gregintenn]

I don't pretend I don't have to answer to a higher power, I simply don't.

 

My personal code of conduct, desire to function within society, and a healthy fear of socitial punishment (ie: jail) guide me through life.

You may be surprised one day.

[Hozzie]

Greg, right or wrong is subjective on many issues.  I think we can all agree that killing someone is wrong on general principle.  We don't need a god to tell us that.  Is adultery wrong.  That is in the eye of the beholder.  There are very few things that are black and white.

 

I can only speak for myself, but as an atheist, my issue is not with religion in and of itself.  I would even say that yes, some aspects of religion are ok, but there are many others that I don't think are ok.  I choose to live my life based on what I believe to be right and wrong based on my beliefs.  Were my beliefs shaped by religion, sure, but does that mean I must "believe", absolutely not.  I simply don't believe that there is some magical power, or being, or whatever you want to believe that is waiting for me when I die. 

 

So more specific to your question, I give a crap about what I think is right and wrong, not what you or anyone else thinks is right and wrong.  I think it is wrong to cheat on ones wife.  Not because religion told me to, but because I believe in monogamy.

 

You don't have to have religion to see this play out in the world.  Take a look at the bigger animal kingdom, there are plenty of example of animals that pair for life and many that don't.  I don't think it is an arguable point to say they do not subscribe to religion.  Why do some do this and other's don't?  I think we can agree they have much less cognitive ability than humans, so I see no way to imply that without religion this monogamy would never happen.  It does and it has.  

 

I suppose my biggest issue with religious people in general is always telling others what they are doing wrong.  Most deeply religious people I know have bigger screwed up lives than any atheist I know.  I won't say religion is the problem, but it's certainly not the end all, be all answer either.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Hozzie

[Hozzie]

You may be surprised one day.

 

That's always a comical answer.  You could be as well.  

[Ted S.]

I've yet to meet an atheists/agnostic that's more of a nihilist than I. Honestly, I believe every moral person, regardless of whether they are religious or atheist, has the same motivation; self-interest.

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[MacGyver]

I get the self interest and self preservation interest in a lot of regards.  I appreciate an individual operating from that basis.

 

In many regards, I can see that being a positive way to operate one's life - especially when it comes to things like killing someone, stealing, robbery, etc...

 

From an adultery perspective, however, it may not hold as much water - and perhaps that's why these site do so well.  If I'm in a miserable marriage - and let's put off the reasons for a moment, as I don't know that it matters.  There may be some financial interest to keep me in that contract of marriage, but there's no incentive for me to not get what I want right now with some other like minded individual.  

 

As a forensic professional, I have plenty of respect for the profound depths of the depravity of man - both with religion and without.  I'm just interested in the moral center of those without when it comes to a site like this.

[Ted S.]

I get the self interest and self preservation interest in a lot of regards. I appreciate an individual operating from that basis.

In many regards, I can see that being a positive way to operate one's life - especially when it comes to things like killing someone, stealing, robbery, etc...

From an adultery perspective, however, it may not hold as much water - and perhaps that's why these site do so well. If I'm in a miserable marriage - and let's put off the reasons for a moment, as I don't know that it matters. There may be some financial interest to keep me in that contract of marriage, but there's no incentive for me to not get what I want right now with some other like minded individual.

As a forensic professional, I have plenty of respect for the profound depths of the depravity of man - both with religion and without. I'm just interested in the moral center of those without when it comes to a site like this.

That's why marriage should be the single most important decision a person makes in their life. But these days people have a consumer mentality even with marriage; "If I don't like this one or if it doesn't work out, I can just get a new one later."

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[Jonnin]

So you were just born knowing right from wrong?

yes.  Its actually biblical that humans have this ... it comes from our distant ancestors munching on some fruit.   Of course, the greek mythology is also biblical and at least true in part, if you want to read it that way...  go read the reason for that big flood thingy again.   Theres lots of stuff in there.

 

Common sense works for me.  My wife can outshoot me with every gun she has ever picked up.   I wouldn't cheat anyway, but there is a common sense element at least for ME...

Edited July 24, 2015 by Jonnin

[gregintenn]

That's always a comical answer.  You could be as well.  

Absolutely; but who has more to lose if they are wrong?

[Hozzie]

I don't think I have anything to lose, so I guess you?

You get nothing or some other God. I get some other God who I couldn't give a crap about. You can say I would go to he'll, so be it. Edited July 24, 2015 by Hozzie

[gregintenn]

I don't think I have anything to lose, so I guess you?

You get nothing or some other God. I get some other God who I couldn't give a crap about. You can say I would go to he'll, so be it.

Good luck that my friend. I sure hope you change your mind at some point. :up:

[TrickyNicky]

Without a religious basis, what's the point?  

 

That's not meant in either a facetious or preachy manner.  I'm simply curious as to other peoples' thinking.  I can look at it from a couple of different viewpoints, but I really find myself coming back to Fyodor Dostoyevsky who may have had a valid point when he said that, "without religion, everything is permitted."

 

My religious beliefs or lack thereof are something I think a lot about. I used to be religious I guess, I was raised in a church going family, I was an alter boy as a kid actually lol. To paraphrase Mother Terresa, I haven't felt the touch of god in years. I can pinpoint right down to pretty much the minute that either he left, or I left or whatever. Some people say I'm being carried, but 16 years is a log time to see one set of footprints in the sand.

 

 

So what keeps me on the straight an narrow? I have to answer to the man who (hypothetically) shaves my face in the morning. He lives in the mirror. Thats it.

[Oh Shoot]

Absolutely; but who has more to lose if they are wrong?

 

One can only believe what one believes. A god that couldn't see through a hedged bet is no god at all.

 

There are lots of gods that neither of us believe in. I just disbelieve in one more than you do. :)

 

- OS

Edited July 24, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[Hozzie]

Good luck that my friend. I sure hope you change your mind at some point. :up:

 

No worries.  Just to make clear, I don't take this personal and hope those who disagree with me don't take it personal.  This is just what I believe.  I have no doubt most of us who disagree on this could go have beers and probably have a hell of a time.    :cheers:

[Murgatroy]

I don't need religion to tell me right from wrong. All I have to do is look into my wife and daughter's eyes. That is who I answer to. No one else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a perfect man. I am a man. I am a flawed human being. And a religious person should respect that we all are. A religious person should also know better than to judge. It is not their place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not anti religion. I was raised with religion. I spent a lot of time in church. However it is the rampant hypocrisy that led me to leave organized religion. I now identify as an agnostic. Through my life I was raised as a LDS, I have spent time with Presbyterian, Southern Baptist and Lutheran. I spent many summers in High School at King College preparing for attendance. I have played in several Christian bands, owned nearly every album put out by Audio Adrenaline, DC Talk, and Newsboys. I remember some of Disciples first shows in Knoxville, followed the Newsboys half way across the country for their Take Me To Your Leader tour. I remember when Jars of Clay didn't have drum in their music do to their beliefs. I am far from a religion expert, but suffice it to say, I have experienced it. Call it a crisis of faith, tell me the devil made me do it, but I have never doubted my path.

 

 

Now I know that my comments will rub a lot of folks the wrong way. I am certain that some folks will have plenty of well meaning advice, or even a bit of ire, but remember, it is my life to live, just as yours is yours.

[gregintenn]

I don't need religion to tell me right from wrong. All I have to do is look into my wife and daughter's eyes. That is who I answer to. No one else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not a perfect man. I am a man. I am a flawed human being. And a religious person should respect that we all are. A religious person should also know better than to judge. It is not their place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am not anti religion. I was raised with religion. I spent a lot of time in church. However it is the rampant hypocrisy that led me to leave organized religion. I now identify as an agnostic. Through my life I was raised as a LDS, I have spent time with Presbyterian, Southern Baptist and Lutheran. I spent many summers in High School at King College preparing for attendance. I have played in several Christian bands, owned nearly every album put out by Audio Adrenaline, DC Talk, and Newsboys. I remember some of Disciples first shows in Knoxville, followed the Newsboys half way across the country for their Take Me To Your Leader tour. I remember when Jars of Clay didn't have drum in their music do to their beliefs. I am far from a religion expert, but suffice it to say, I have experienced it. Call it a crisis of faith, tell me the devil made me do it, but I have never doubted my path.

 

 

Now I know that my comments will rub a lot of folks the wrong way. I am certain that some folks will have plenty of well meaning advice, or even a bit of ire, but remember, it is my life to live, just as yours is yours.

Is being concerned about the condition of another's soul judging in your opinion?

 

You aren't rubbing me the wrong way. So long as we keep it civil, I find the discussion interesting.

Edited July 24, 2015 by gregintenn

[MacGyver]

That's why marriage should be the single most important decision a person makes in their life. But these days people have a consumer mentality even with marriage; "If I don't like this one or if it doesn't work out, I can just get a new one later."

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Agreed. Today we treat everything as disposable. It's a shame that we treat marriages that way.

But, when you think about it most of us even treat our churches that way. I sit here in Nashville – the Protestant Vatican – where they're over 900 churches, most of them next door to one another. The consumerist/disposable mentality has crept into everything that we do modern Western life.

[MacGyver]

And, truthfully I think our churches probably share some blame in this whole situation. It's not just we as individuals have come to expect too much from the government, but our church is all too willing to cede their voice as well.

Think about it. Most of you were married in a church, and stood up and took an oath to each other in front of God and a bunch of friends, family members and fellow congregants. But what stake does that church, or did the church really have in your marriage? It's like we sign the marriage license and then turn the responsibility totally over to the state.

If we in the church want to lay claim to any type of moral voice when it comes to marriage, then it's about time we start acting like we have a stake in and a responsibility to looking after those marriages as a community.

Frankly, until we start doing that I don't think it much matters who we as individual communities say we will or will not marry.

[btq96r]

I get the self interest and self preservation interest in a lot of regards.  I appreciate an individual operating from that basis.

 

In many regards, I can see that being a positive way to operate one's life - especially when it comes to things like killing someone, stealing, robbery, etc...

 

From an adultery perspective, however, it may not hold as much water - and perhaps that's why these site do so well. 

 

These sites do well because people are human, and the allure of someone new is always going to be strong.  Even the most good hearted men of God can be corrupted in their lust.  MLK comes to mind as an example.  These sites are just adapting to the 21st century.  Nothing new under the sun when you break it down.

 

 

Completely agree with those who think that marriage is rushed into these days.  But, it's been programmed into people that's what's normal.

[Mike.357]

, not because of God but because they understand how they would want to be treated by others and strive to live by that axiom.

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Golden Rule

[Mike.357]

Common sense was a thing that left behind after we entered the 21st century for the most part. I fail to see it taught in schools, government or even by parents lately. I suppose you have to have some common sense in order to teach it though. Therein lies  the problem.

 

 

Common sense isn't common,  at least that's what Grandma told me.

 

You can't teach it, it is not learned.

[bud]

. Edited August 8, 2015 by bud