Search for Accuracy

[rab]

Hey All,

  My plan is to get my S&W M&P15 to shoot as well as possible. At present it is completly stock. I only compete with my son in law and myself,but I want the best at what I can afford. Now my gold for now is to shoot 1 inch at 200yds. I have no problem doing this with my bolt gun at the present. I do reload for my 223's. I had stated that  the M&P was stock,not true I change out the trigger springs to the yellow kit from Midway and a Nikon 3-9 Prostaff. My question is what should be the steps to reach my intended gold? Is the M&P a good platform to start with or should I go a different route? Any help or thoughts on others builds would be very helpful. Thanks

[SingleStack]

Im not much help with the question. But how does it shoot now? what groups do you get at 100 and 200 now?

[BigK]

You're asking for 0.5 MOA accuracy from a platform traditionally capable of 3-4 MOA accuracy.

 

If you have an older M&P15 (from when they had the really good barrels) AND you free-floated the handguard AND you installed an upgraded trigger (like a Geiselle or Timney) AND shot match grade ammo, you might cut that group size in half. That translates to around 4" groups @ 200 yds. 

 

That's just my non-expert opinion. I'm positive someone more experienced and knowledgeable will weigh in with more details.

Edited July 19, 2015 by BigK

[rab]

Thanks for the comments. At the present I shoot 1.00" to 1.25" with 53 gn. sierra and 24.4 gn. 4064 at 100yds with bipod and rear bag. My M&P is about 6years old. I was thinking of a match grade barrel and free float tube.

[Jct1911]

Thanks for the comments. At the present I shoot 1.00" to 1.25" with 53 gn. sierra and 24.4 gn. 4064 at 100yds with bipod and rear bag. My M&P is about 6years old. I was thinking of a match grade barrel and free float tube.

No guarantees. But I doubt you will shrink your groups 50%. I would throw some money at a trigger first, I personally like light single stage. Barrels are tough and with your current results, you may not see any improvement. I would opt for a heavier profile since this ain't a carrying rifle. I don't like longer than 18" on mine. My current match rifle will shoot .6 groups at a 100, that is no small feat, lots of load development and bench time.

[nightrunner]

I'm thinking a free floated match grade barrel along with a true competition trigger to start. I'd swap to either a fixed rifle stock or a Magpul PRS as well. Lots of load development as well, still may not get there.

There is a reason that true competition long range shooters and military/LE sharpshooters/snipers use a bolt gun still. An auto loader just can't compare.

[BigK]

Thanks for the comments. At the present I shoot 1.00" to 1.25" with 53 gn. sierra and 24.4 gn. 4064 at 100yds with bipod and rear bag. My M&P is about 6years old. I was thinking of a match grade barrel and free float tube.

 

That's much better groups than I would have ever expected OOTB, even with handloads. Kudos...seriously.

[RED333]

Thanks for the comments. At the present I shoot 1.00" to 1.25" with 53 gn. sierra and 24.4 gn. 4064 at 100yds with bipod and rear bag. My M&P is about 6years old. I was thinking of a match grade barrel and free float tube.

That is minute of zombie head, good for me. :up:

Now if you can shoot 10 shots in less than 60 seconds with minute of zombie head, then you are doing some good shooting! :rock:

[rab]

No guarantees. But I doubt you will shrink your groups 50%. I would throw some money at a trigger first, I personally like light single stage. Barrels are tough and with your current results, you may not see any improvement. I would opt for a heavier profile since this ain't a carrying rifle. I don't like longer than 18" on mine. My current match rifle will shoot .6 groups at a 100, that is no small feat, lots of load development and bench time.

 Jct1911

   What are you referring to as a heavy profile? I am assuming the barrel, which did you chose? Do you feel that the M&P is a place to start, or do I need a different platform?

[rab]

That is minute of zombie head, good for me. :up:

Now if you can shoot 10 shots in less than 60 seconds with minute of zombie head, then you are doing some good shooting! :rock:

Thanks for the thought, But in no way can I get off 10 shots in 60 seconds the way I shoot. I guess that I shot my AR the way I shoot my bolt gun.

[rab]

That's much better groups than I would have ever expected OOTB, even with handloads. Kudos...seriously.

Thanks alot.

[rab]

An AR has two limiting factors and both are EASILY resolved.

First, and foremost, is ammunition. Mil spec ammunition is not built with extreme accuracy as a goal. The standard, if I remember correctly, is 3MOA accuracy. And I have found most ARs do that, or a little better, shooting milspec ammunition. But if you reload you can increase accuracy substantially. I had an AR that would shoot Wolf or Tula into a 3-4 MOA grouping. Now with mil spec M855 or M193 the same gun would group ~2 MOA. But once I worked up an accurate hand load the group's shrunk to under 1 MOA with most groups being between 1/2-3/4 MOA. So what he is asking for is entirely possible just not with most factory loaded ammunition. If it were me I would start out with a 68-69 grain bullet over 24.5-24.7 grains of Varget. That is a known accuracy load that works with a lot of different guns like FGMM.

The next biggest obstacle to squeezing the most accuracy out of an AR is the trigger and that is just a matter of personal preference. I prefer a single stage with no take up but others prefer a two stage will others don't mind the milspec triggers. But make no mistake a bad trigger will adversely affect accuracy regardless of the platform.

Here are a few more "honorable mentions" for improving accuracy.

When shooting do not shoot off of a bipod. Shoot off of something soft like a backpack, a pillow or just padded blocks. A bipod affects the harmonics of the entire gun and ruin accuracy.

Next is brass prep. The single biggest improvement I got from prepping brass was when I deburring and uniform img the flas holes. That single thing knocked a 1/4" off the 100 yard group sizes. Although I never did it I hear neck turning can help but I am not sure the improvement is worth it with an AR.

I also do not crimp the loaded round. I reduce the expander ball by .002" and that provides plenty of neck tension without deforming the bullet.

And when it comes to powder chargesske sure your dispenser/hopper has a powder baffle to keep the weight of the powder consistent when being measured. This also had a HUGE impact on consistency and a consistent gun is an accurate gun.

Dolomite

  Thanks for the advice. I do load all of my ammo and make every effort to keep all my brass as consistent an uniform as I can. I have just been reloading for three years and want to learn all that I can. How did you reduce the expander ball? Also  I use a single stage press(RCBS) and weight each load on a 505 scales. I will also try a front bag.

Again Thanks

[Dolomite_supafly]

I chucked it into a drill and used 1,000 grit sandpaper to reduce the size. Then polished it with 2,000 grit.

Get an electronic scale. It is so much faster and can be just as accurate. The time saved will let you spend more time on other things.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I spent several years chasing groups. It got to a point I was spending way more time prepping rather than shooting.

I would also wait for certain kinds of weather to go shoot groups.

The only thing I still do is deburring and uniforming the flash holes. It is the single thing that is worth the effort.

[Jct1911]

Jct1911
What are you referring to as a heavy profile? I am assuming the barrel, which did you chose? Do you feel that the M&P is a place to start, or do I need a different platform?

For the most part a lower is a lower and an upper is an upper(sure there are varying degrees of finish and quality but in general, most are fine). By thicker profile, I'm assuming your barrel is of some kind of combat design, like an m4 or a2 profile. I really like the spr profile barrels(my current favorite being an odinworks barrel). I've also got a ARP 3gun barrel that is just about as accurate.
Free floating is a good idea, but not always as big of a ROI, it only reduces variables and allows more shot to shot consistency. But as DS said above, a trigger can make or break the best rifle. I currently use a CMC flat faced 3.5lb single stage, it reminds me of a really good 1911 trigger and has a very short reset.

[Jonnin]

The M&P is a well made, good gun, but its also an inexpensive line of guns and not precision target grade equipment. 

 

Let me ask the obvious questions... does the trigger pull make you miss (hardish to pull) ?  

 

What can the gun do if you lock it into an unmoving rest and fire it with your ammo?

 

What power optics are you using, have your tried an excessively powerful scope at 200 (say, 30+ power?)? 

 

Do you let the gun cool down between shots?  If not, you might prefer a bull barrel (you might want this anyway). 

 

Can you hear the sonic boom of the bullet?  Supersonic ammo can have some jitter when it does that... there is a known issue "around" the speed of sound that causes problems *in some cases*.   Adjusting the ammo speed a little can sometimes improve the accuracy if this is a problem (from the sound of it, haha, it isn't an issue, you did some good shooting already).

 

These are the sorts of things you can look at *before* spending a ton of money.