Moving to TN - question on concealed carry permit

[JayC]

3 minutes ago, chances R said:

Have to disagree.  If the course is done correctly it may in fact provide you with basic knowledge and examples of some things that will cost you many times over the cost of the class.  While you may do your own research, most do not.  Heck, most that take the class will never practice.  Your knowledge of the basic laws and surviving the possible legal battle is as important and potentially life-changing as the physical battle.

Basics all of which were covered in his NC, how much more is he really going to get out of a top of the line $$$ class vs the cheapest one he can find?  Nothing.

Again, this isn't about practice, or even self defense firearms training, if he was asking about such a class, I'd agree there is a big ddifference between instructor A and B.  But he's asking on how to convert his NC permit to a TN permit, and the fact is the cheapest class gets you the same place as the most expensive.

My experience with permit classes is they either provide you with incorrect or misleading information on TN laws concerning handgun carry and self defense.  If you're interested in detailed knowledge in that submit, a HCP course isn't the right place to find it.

The HCP source is nothing but corporate welfare for ranges and instructors, it provides little to no value.  What little value it might provide could be done with a simple website with videos and a 10 question true/false test at the end.

For 3 years people have been allowed to carry concealed loaded firearms in their vehicles, and the streets are running with blood, there is absolutely no reason what so ever to require a permit to carry a firearm, now I'm not suggesting we do away with the permit system for those residents who want to carry in other states, but to make somebody with an NC permit have to re-take the course here is just silly.

Don't fall for the gimmicks, HCP course is a complete waste of time, take the cheapest course you can find, get your permit, and then get the correct amount of training to become comfortable with carrying and self defense laws.

[chances R]

JayC, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but we still disagree.  Sorry you had a lousy experience with your class.  I can't speak to all of the similarities of NC law vs. TN.  But one difference is in NC one must notify LEO of being armed.....not so in TN, but is an option.  Corporate welfare?  Don't know, the ranges and instructors have no say in the creation of State law, but do provide a vehicle to help comply with the law.  I seriously doubt that local LEO could provide all of the needed classes, and if so, I am sure there would be some cost.  Because of the the differences in States, I still think a review should be available, whether in person or on-line.  Same for military personnel which are now exempt in TN from taking the course.  So I still think it is cheap insurance even though it is very minimal.  I agree with you that training is important and few do so.  I have yet to take any course where there is more than a very brief and informal discussion of any handgun law.  Where would you suggest a 'newbie' get such training and information?

[Jeb48]

Since one of my postings from July of last years was quoted, I thought I'd chime in. I didn't go to the $72 class. I found a $50 class at a local gun club. I have previously taken two different NRA handgun classes and the Utah carry class, so the only thing I got that I needed was the TN law part, some review and the checkmark to get my carry permit. For a new shooter it would be a lot more valuable. I certainly could have gotten just as much out of an online TN law tutorial. Would be nice if a person has previous class credits from NRA or a different state, even if more than 6 months old, that they could take an online tutorial and if they pass could skip the class.

[JAB]

19 hours ago, JayC said:

The HCP source is nothing but corporate welfare for ranges and instructors, it provides little to no value.  What little value it might provide could be done with a simple website with videos and a 10 question true/false test at the end.

I don't think the course requirement is mainly intended as 'corporate welfare for ranges and instructors.'  Instead, I think it is there for an even more 'nefarious' reason - to make it even more difficult for someone who doesn't have a lot of money left after paying the bills to be able to afford to get an HCP.  Honestly, the $115 initial fee is already ridiculous.  I mean, really, what does the background check require in this day and age?  Someone pressing a few keys on a keyboard?  The fee should be something closer to $25.  The HCP class, if it is to be a requirement, should be provided free of charge.  Sound crazy?  Well, consider the Hunter's Safety Course that is required before people born after a certain date (which is probably the majority of hunters in TN now) can get a hunting license.  You take the course, have a test at the end, do a little shooting at the range and then one of the people responsible for the class signs off on a piece of paper saying you can legally get a hunting license.  Sound familiar?  Those courses - if attended in person - take several days, not hours, and are free.  Further, there is an option to do most of the course work online and then attend a class that takes a few hours on a Saturday to get some information in person, take the test, do the range portion and get the signed certificate.  Again, sound familiar?  And, again, free of charge. 

[JayC]

19 hours ago, chances R said:

JayC, you are certainly welcome to your opinion, but we still disagree.  Sorry you had a lousy experience with your class.  I can't speak to all of the similarities of NC law vs. TN.  But one difference is in NC one must notify LEO of being armed.....not so in TN, but is an option.  Corporate welfare?  Don't know, the ranges and instructors have no say in the creation of State law, but do provide a vehicle to help comply with the law.  I seriously doubt that local LEO could provide all of the needed classes, and if so, I am sure there would be some cost.  Because of the the differences in States, I still think a review should be available, whether in person or on-line.  Same for military personnel which are now exempt in TN from taking the course.  So I still think it is cheap insurance even though it is very minimal.  I agree with you that training is important and few do so.  I have yet to take any course where there is more than a very brief and informal discussion of any handgun law.  Where would you suggest a 'newbie' get such training and information?

My class was just like any other, the handgun instructor was a good guy, but the fact is the class was a complete waste of my time...   And in my case the class was 100% free, I was helping the range out with an issue, and they provided me the class among other items in trade.

My father went to a class run by the Mt Juliet PD, I think the cost was $25 and they covered the exact same information that the gun range covered, the difference is the range charged $75 more for their class.  The only difference I could see is some instructors might be better at keeping you awake during the 8 wasted hours.

As for corporate welfare, it's exactly that, else why not allow other certifications cover the firearms part of the test, or place the written portion of the test online, or given at TDOS when you apply for the permit?  Why do you have to pay an instructor and a range to sit through videos that have already been paid for and technically are public domain?  If you've already jumped through hoops to get your hunters safety card, which requires firearms training, or have a NRA handgun course certificate etc?

The simple answer is because the HCP program brings a lot of money into local ranges.  How much, a lot, 100+ million dollars over the last 15 years of money has been spent just to meet the requirements to apply for an HCP.  That doesn't count the extra classes a range sells to applicants during the 8 hour sell-a-thon, or extra firearms, or accessories they sell on those nights.

And how do we know the training is a complete waste?  Because virtually nobody fails the class.  Compare that to the TN drivers test which has a failure rate 100+ times higher than HCP class failure rates.

The HCP class requirements provides little to no value to the citizens of TN inside the state of TN.  

[chances R]

1 hour ago, JayC said:

My class .......was a complete waste of my time...   And in my case the class was 100% free,........  The HCP class requirements provides little to no value to the citizens of TN inside the state of TN.  

....not if you travel outside the State.  40 other states recognize your permit for your  investment.  Contrast that to Vermont where no permit is needed to carry, what you seem to want to mirror here in TN, BUT only 8 states have some form of reciprocity/carry with Vermont.  I am not saying there shouldn't be a better, cheaper way, but to blame corporate entities rather than the state legislature is missing the mark.   

[Thunor]

What happened? - out of nowhere - a flurry of activity!

Yup I am the OP - wasn't intending to set the pot to boiling.

So an update.

I still have to take the course - it's kinda quite around here, and I don't leave the house often - then it's rarely anywhere close  to "trouble points" (we are rural - roundabouts I don't believe anyone is unarmed) so I hit a road block in the application process, and still need to go about taking this class

Address for last 3 years - well we returned to the US about 3 years ago so until recently I wasn't able to complete the form - so thanks for the reminder!

The course in NC was thorough enough  - class given by a Captain in the Sheriff's office. So really it's more a matter of learning any differences between NC and TN law.

Is it really another 8 hour "course" just for that??

The 8 hour course in NC was abridged by mutual consent of instructor and participants - nothing was missed out.

I would have thought TN would (and should) be constitutional carry by now!

[docachna]

Just gotta mention a couple of things. Moved here 4+ yrs ago from Ohio. Most notable differences are three.

1) Ohio has a statute (O.R.C. 9.68) providing a uniform statewide framework for regulation of firearms in many respects. As to self-defense, that means cities can't prohibit carry in local parks (concealed OR open), removing the danger of inconsistent rules from town to town. it also has teeth in it, awarding attorney fees and costs to anyone having to challenge a municipality who enacts a contrary statute. SEE Ohioans For Concealed Carry vs. Cleveland to see it in action (Cleveland always thought of themselves as a separate country anyway). I've always found the variety of laws here from locality to locality to be a tad troublesome, but I don't go walking around in various parks very much with a weapon on, so it's largely a non-issue for me.

2) Ohio requires that you notify an LEO if you are BOTH a licensee AND you are currently armed, but only if you are "stopped for a law enforcement purpose". Problem is, many LEO up there are convinced that you need to notify them if you are a licensee, even if you're not presently armed, and also, that you do so any time you get in close proximity to them. There have even been occasional arrests out of it. Obviously, charges were dropped, but they still took the ride. BE THANKFUL THE TN LEGISLATURE NEVER PASSED LEO NOTIFICATION ! It is a MAJOR PITA. Been stopped twice here. Both times they immediately asked me if any weapons were in the car. As a 9 year former cop, I guarantee to you that any cop with a grain of intelligence always assumes each person he contacts is armed, anyway.

3) Finally, open carry. Any person who may legally possess a firearm in Ohio may open carry in non-prohibited locations (govt buildings, hospitals, churches, the usual list). Any person may walk down a city street open carry, and are breaking no laws. RKBA is a fundamental right under the OH Constitution, and it was determined long ago that "that which is not prohibited is therefore legal", and that therefore, since no statute prohibited open carry by an otherwise law-abiding gun owner, such open carry was in fact legal. Another detail many Ohio LEO have had trouble wrapping their arms around - but 2A groups up there are working on it, daily. I do still have a bit of trouble understanding how LEO here have probable cause to detain an OC'er here to ask if they're licensed. Do they have the right to stop a motorist simply to see his DL ?

All in all, I don't find TN laws difficult to deal with at all, and the lack of LEO notification is great (and now, with no license needed in the vehicle, mama can take her Walther with her in the SUV without having to get the license ! She's HAPPY about that!).

All have a great weekend. But can ya PLEASE get the temperature down just a tad ???

[JayC]

22 hours ago, chances R said:

....not if you travel outside the State.  40 other states recognize your permit for your  investment.  Contrast that to Vermont where no permit is needed to carry, what you seem to want to mirror here in TN, BUT only 8 states have some form of reciprocity/carry with Vermont.  I am not saying there shouldn't be a better, cheaper way, but to blame corporate entities rather than the state legislature is missing the mark.   

I'm all for keeping the permit system as is for folks who want a gold star permit to carry out of state.  I'm just saying that constitutional carry, or a permit-light system similar to MS's makes a lot more sense.

But requiring that somebody go get a permit when they can legally carry a firearm loaded in their car without one, makes no sense what so ever.

Edited September 10, 2016 by JayC

[300winmag]

If you travel anywhere, the permit comes in handy because some states only allow open carry without a permit. 

[tnhawk]

On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 8:32 PM, 300winmag said:

If you travel anywhere, the permit comes in handy because some states only allow open carry without a permit. 

In TN if you want to carry outside your vehicle the permit is a necessity.

[Oh Shoot]

On 9/9/2016 at 6:33 PM, JayC said:

...

But requiring that somebody go get a permit when they can legally carry a firearm loaded in their car without one, makes no sense what so ever.

Vehicle has been deemed for a good long while by TN law as same as home as far as deadly force justification is concerned ... they just finally ended the hypocrisy regarding banning firearms in one of the two.

Note that one hypocrisy remains -- the fact that a permit is still required to have firearms in vehicle in posted lots and school property. Under the law, your vehicle somehow loses its status there unless you've paid extra for it.

- OS 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Oh Shoot

[JayC]

16 hours ago, Oh Shoot said:

Vehicle has been deemed for a good long while by TN law as same as home as far as deadly force justification is concerned ... they just finally ended the hypocrisy regarding banning firearms in one of the two.

Note that one hypocrisy remains -- the fact that a permit is still required to have firearms in vehicle in posted lots and school property. Under the law, your vehicle somehow loses its status there unless you've paid extra for it.

- OS 

Or the hypocrisy that requiring a permit only creates more crime, not prevent it

[Tri-Cities Bob]

For TN Handgun Safety Class in the Johnson City area take a look at unakarodandgun.com website and click on "Classes" option on the top of the home page.  Classes are held the 2nd Saturday of every month except January and February and cost $50.

[rmiddle]

On 9/9/2016 at 4:03 PM, Thunor said:

The 8 hour course in NC was abridged by mutual consent of instructor and participants - nothing was missed out.

I would have thought TN would (and should) be constitutional carry by now!

1

It really should be constitutional carry I think we got close last year.  I expect we will in a few years.  

As for the training course.  The 8 hours includes the training.  Watching a stupid video that covers everything in the training again.  A simple test that as long as you don't fall asleep during the class you can't fail and shooting 50 rounds on the range.  20 at 3 and 5 yards and 10 at 7 yards.  You need to get a score of 70% Even the people who didn't yet own a handgun passed.  The only way you will fail is if you ignore the instructor and do your own thing.