Thoughts By Lt. Col. Allen West

[K191145]

I've often wondered the same thing. In my own case my actions would probably be determined by the amount of time that had passed since I last saw a child hanged by my enemy from a telephone pole, as so many Russians witnessed in World War II. In my case the Rules of Engagement would probably become "loose guidelines" about then. Y'all do what you think is right.

 

My dad told me long ago when he was alive that when he treked through France and Germany and saw some German soldier dead on the ground he could feel a little sorry for him and his mother, the ordinary German soldier was likely not a raging nazi but some guy who was forced into the situation, maybe a halfway decent guy. Then he said he saw a few who had that Waffen SS insignia on their uniform and he couldn't have any sympathy for them, he wasn't glad they were dead but he was relieved because they were cruel and evil men and also the most dangerous. 

During the chechnya school siege in Russia those  chechnyian Islamic terrorists shot school children just because they were bored. The radical Islamic mind is cruel and evil, popping a round by their head or even smacking them around to try to save you own commrads is nothing. I can't know for sure but I can imagine that if I were in a conflict with an enemy that was that evil and saw first hand the murder of innocent children that I would be capable of doing what I felt I had to. If it was in my back yard and friends or family was murdered I believe I could execute one, and no, it's not the same. Try telling that to the French or people of Belgium, or Norway, or the Chinese right after WW2. 

[MacGyver]

Treating prisoners humanely is more about us than it is them.  It is natural to act out in anger and treat a prisoner aggressively.  It may even offer some short term tactical gain.  But, its cost to us is far higher than we're able to recognize at the time.  This is certainly part of the reasoning behind the prohibitions in the USMJ.

 

It's not until later - when you have to look in the mirror - when you can't get the demons out of your head - when you can't close your eyes without revisiting it that you'll realize the full magnanimity of the action.  They'll label you with PTSD - a "disorder" that is in fact a natural response to traumatic action.  They'll give you all kinds of drugs to help you forget - or at least not care as much that you can't forget.  None of the people around you will understand what you're going through.  They'll hope that you'll get better with time.  You'll hope that you can simply make it through one more day.

 

Lord knows that we've lost too many of our soldiers to this fight back here on US soil.  We don't understand post-traumatic stress, and as such do a woeful disservice to our troops by not getting them the resources they need. The military needs to do a better job, and all of our individual communities that "Support the Troops" need to do a better job, too.

 

Indeed, we sleep safely in our beds because there are others willing to stand in the breach and meet violence with violence.  But, if we're going to claim that we are better - we have to be better in action as opposed to just rhetoric.  The cost is simply too high to do otherwise.

[tennesseetiger]

Ever read something so detached from reality that it makes your eye twitch?  I just did.

No kidding..........he's in for a rude awakening if thats how he really feels.

[Links2k]

No kidding..........he's in for a rude awakening if thats how he really feels.

Yes, that's how he really feels. Blacks are 13-14% of the population, own about 7% of all small businesses and are not consistent voters. People like to point out the 1.1 trillion dollars that blacks spend, but that only makes them consumers. There is very little power in consumerism. If blacks had the financial and political power that some of you believe they possess, you be would be seeing grander actions than the removal of the confederate flag in some sectors of our community.

If I'm wrong, enlighten me. I have no problem excepting good information.

[tennesseetiger]

Yes, that's how he really feels. Blacks are 13-14% of the population, own about 7% of all small businesses and are not consistent voters. People like to point out the 1.1 trillion dollars that blacks spend, but that only makes them consumers. There is very little power in consumerism. If blacks had the financial and political power that some of you believe they possess, you be would be seeing grander actions than the removal of the confederate flag in some sectors of our community.

If I'm wrong, enlighten me. I have no problem excepting good information.

Numbers dont mean #### my friend...the fact that a confederate flag was taken down by a minority and that monuments are being scrapped everywhere are proof of that.

Enlightenment.




And no I dont agree with it, but people are bowing down right now whether you agree or not thats what is happening so yes, they have the power at the moment.

Edited July 16, 2015 by tennesseetiger

[Links2k]

Numbers dont mean #### my friend...the fact that a confederate flag was taken down by a minority and that monuments are being scrapped everywhere are proof of that.
Enlightenment.

I beg to differ my friend. It is my option as I stated earlier, that the flags came down because of corporate and political pressure. If blacks could have had those flags removed, the flags would have been done away with decades ago.

[tennesseetiger]

I beg to differ my friend. It is my option as I stated earlier, that the flags came down because of corporate and political pressure. If blacks could have had those flags removed, the flags would have been done away with decades ago.

They came down from pressure from the african american and democrat side of things so I guess you could say political pressure was involved but it was done by a minority group.

[Oh Shoot]

They came down from pressure from the african american and democrat side of things so I guess you could say political pressure was involved but it was done by a minority group.

 

Oh, I'd say that nationwide, the majority of white folks would have voted in favor of nixing them also.

 

 

- OS

[Links2k]

They came down from pressure from the african american and democrat side of things so I guess you could say political pressure was involved but it wfas done by a minority group.

I bet that you also believe that Sharpton and Jackson are black leaders.

[tennesseetiger]

I bet that you also believe that Sharpton and Jackson are black leaders.

You think I like 2 of the biggest pieces of sh*t in this country?


You must have me confused with somebody else...I'm going to just leave this conversation now.

[TNWNGR]

Oh, I'd say that nationwide, the majority of white folks would have voted in favor of nixing them also.
 
 
- OS

Perhaps, but then a sizable portion of the white population is liberal, voted for BHO and don't have the slightest ideal about what's going on. But then few people know that the flag and flag pole taken down at the SC capital wasn't flying over the capital building. It was flying over a Confederate War Memorial. I guess since Memphis decided to dig up NBF and his wife the next step is tear up all oh the Confederate Memorials. After all demands are ongoing that Stone Mtn be defaced. The bottom line is this is al about outrageous demands aimed at generating influence and control. The more gains the more demands.

[btq96r]

Per the sub-debate of black political power, or lack thereof...

 

Yes they have political power, but it's not as great as people make it out to be.  On their own, the black community can be marginalized and ignored just like other groups of their limited size and power.   They certainly don't get to set an agenda nationwide or even statewide anywhere, only influence it.  With our two party system, black political power is diluted still.  Inside Republican politics, they have no way to push something, and within the Democratic party, they are just another competing interest group in the large scheme. 

 

If you look at when black influence made a major change in American politics or culture, it usually came only after an event of importance that they seized onto to amplify a cause, or as the culmination of a long effort.  Nothing they have gained came easily, including the repudiation of the Confederate (battle) flag.  That was a long time coming on their side, and they simply pushed the issue when the chance presented itself.

 

Black politics is all about cultivating their resources for the long fight, and pressing an advantage when the time is right.  They don't have enough power to wield it any other way.

[Omega]

Per the sub-debate of black political power, or lack thereof...
 
Yes they have political power, but it's not as great as people make it out to be.  On their own, the black community can be marginalized and ignored just like other groups of their limited size and power.   They certainly don't get to set an agenda nationwide or even statewide anywhere, only influence it.  With our two party system, black political power is diluted still.  Inside Republican politics, they have no way to push something, and within the Democratic party, they are just another competing interest group in the large scheme. 
 
If you look at when black influence made a major change in American politics or culture, it usually came only after an event of importance that they seized onto to amplify a cause, or as the culmination of a long effort.  Nothing they have gained came easily, including the repudiation of the Confederate (battle) flag.  That was a long time coming on their side, and they simply pushed the issue when the chance presented itself.
 
Black politics is all about cultivating their resources for the long fight, and pressing an advantage when the time is right.  They don't have enough power to wield it any other way.

I don't know, I think they wield considerable political power. Most is just because its not PC to not support their cause and many whites have this unfounded guilt for what happened in the past. Even though slavery was, arguably, the best thing to happen to them seeing how they would now be in war torn Africa if not for the bad luck of their ancestors. Now before I get branded a racist, I feel the same for all the Mexicans that stayed on this side of the border after Mexico was defeated.

[Links2k]

I don't know, I think they wield considerable political power. Most is just because its not PC to not support their cause and many whites have this unfounded guilt for what happened in the past. Even though slavery was, arguably, the best thing to happen to them seeing how they would now be in war torn Africa if not for the bad luck of their ancestors. Now before I get branded a racist, I feel the same for all the Mexicans that stayed on this side of the border after Mexico was defeated.

:)

[tennesseetiger]

I don't know, I think they wield considerable political power. Most is just because its not PC to not support their cause and many whites have this unfounded guilt for what happened in the past. Even though slavery was, arguably, the best thing to happen to them seeing how they would now be in war torn Africa if not for the bad luck of their ancestors. Now before I get branded a racist, I feel the same for all the Mexicans that stayed on this side of the border after Mexico was defeated.

They have power from what I said earlier...people bow down to the demands "race guilt anyone?". The silent majority is called the silent majority for a reason...its because a lot of us "I use that term loosely because a lot of us are pretty vocal" dont do or say anything to counter the demands and antics.

Edited July 17, 2015 by tennesseetiger

[btq96r]

I don't know, I think they wield considerable political power. Most is just because its not PC to not support their cause and many whites have this unfounded guilt for what happened in the past.

 

Tell me one significant black issue that they took from start to finish without a long term push or by taking advantage of a crisis, but rather though overt political power.

 

Now try the same exercise with political groups like the Religious Right, Trade Unions, the Defense Lobby, the NRA...the disparity of power is a big one.

[TGO David]

Tell me one significant black issue that they took from start to finish without a long term push or by taking advantage of a crisis, but rather though overt political power.

 

Now try the same exercise with political groups like the Religious Right, Trade Unions, the Defense Lobby, the NRA...the disparity of power is a big one.

 

Hard work accomplishes a lot, especially when a lot of people are working hard toward a common goal.  The common denominator among the groups you refer to as wielding more political power than... whoever... is the fact that they unite a lot of people behind a common goal, and those people are diligent in their pursuits and make things happen.  Dr. Martin Luther King and other true black leaders can only do so much on their own.  MLK accomplished quite a bit by unifying the people beneath a common banner, for crying out loud.  His accomplishments weren't carried along and made easier because of crisis -- he was met with opposition and persevered.  

 

He wasn't just shuffling along alone hoping people would join him and embrace the ideals of equal rights until a fortunate, merciful tidal wave of crisis carried him swiftly across a finish line he would have never reached otherwise; he and his fellow men and women worked their asses off for it.  Their hard work magnified the crisis.  It didn't create it.  It didn't benefit because of it.  Their hard work survived that crisis only because they fought hard to see it through.

 

I mean, seriously, what the f--- are they teaching in schools these days if you seriously believe what you wrote???

 

The Religious Right (what a defaming label, by the way) , Trade Unions, Defense Lobby and the NRA understand what Dr. King and his constituents understood:  HARD WORK PAYS OFF.  HARD WORK BY MANY PAYS OFF LARGER AND FASTER.

 

What hard work in large numbers has modern "disenfranchised Black America" done lately except rally behind the effort to put the worst President in history into office and burn Ferguson, MO and Baltimore, MD to the ground?  Show me black leaders today who are more like Dr. King in the sense of trying to better all of America than people like Allen West or Ben Carson.  Men who worked hard and work hard and care about the people more than they care about themselves and understand that it takes a unified front to turn tides.

[btq96r]

MLK accomplished quite a bit by unifying the people beneath a common banner, for crying out loud.  His accomplishments weren't carried along and made easier because of crisis -- he was met with opposition and persevered.  

 

He wasn't just shuffling along alone hoping people would join him and embrace the ideals of equal rights until a fortunate, merciful tidal wave of crisis carried him swiftly across a finish line he would have never reached otherwise; he and his fellow men and women worked their asses off for it.  Their hard work magnified the crisis.  It didn't create it.  It didn't benefit because of it.  Their hard work survived that crisis only because they fought hard to see it through.

 

MLK and the civil rights movement in at the predominant used the "long push" method I mentioned, not the crisis into results.  Though they did know how to pick and choose the right person as the face of a cause through the prism of political reality.  That's why Rosa Parks, and not Claudette Colvin or the others in the actual Browder v. Gayle became the public face of the bus boycotts.  

 

You're right that they used hard work, but it was a long term fight and they knew the eventual turning point would be when enough of white America supported their cause.

 

 

The Religious Right (what a defaming label, by the way)

 

What do you think I should call them, Moral Majority, Christian Right?  Labels that get your knickers in a twist aside, the fact remains religious figures and organizations engrained into right wing politics fit that title.

 

 

What hard work in large numbers has modern "disenfranchised Black America" done lately except rally behind the effort to put the worst President in history into office and burn Ferguson, MO and Baltimore, MD to the ground?  Show me black leaders today who are more like Dr. King in the sense of trying to better all of America than people like Allen West or Ben Carson.  Men who worked hard and work hard and care about the people more than they care about themselves and understand that it takes a unified front to turn tides.

 

Allen West and Ben Carson are not "black leaders" in the sense that they can move the needle of the black community.  Honestly, I don't know who can be a leader of enough influence in the black community today.  They're increasingly fragmented, with different goals and aims, with a lot of people unreceptive to a "collective good" type of message that isn't really about individual benefits.  They are also losing what power they have left inside the Democratic party to Hispanics, who are now the parties preferred minority due to their increasing numbers and electoral importance. 

Edited July 17, 2015 by btq96r

[Links2k]

Allen West and Ben Carson are not "black leaders" in the sense that they can move the needle of the black community. Honestly, I don't know who can be a leader of enough influence in the black community today. They're increasingly fragmented, with different goals and aims, with a lot of people unreceptive to a "collective good" type of message that isn't really about individual benefits. They are also losing what power they have left inside the Democratic party to Hispanics, who are now the parties preferred minority due to their increasing numbers and electoral importance.

There aren't any black leaders. I always wonder why people attempt to assume that blacks need a leader. What is it that makes people feel that blacks need an official spokesperson? Who are the white, Hispanic and Asian leaders? Edited July 17, 2015 by LINKS2K

[tennesseetiger]

There aren't any black leaders. I always wonder why people attempt to assume that blacks need a leader. What is it that makes people feel that blacks need an official spokesperson? Who is the white, Hispanic and Asian leader?

They are brainwashed...its all a part of the money scheme that is in place to make money off the black community.

[Chucktshoes]

There aren't any black leaders. I always wonder why people attempt to assume that blacks need a leader. What is it that makes people feel that blacks need an official spokesperson? Who are the white, Hispanic and Asian leaders?

Don't you realize that you all need to be led around by a good leader like the children that ya'll are? We can't have all y'all walking around thinking that you can make decisions as individuals. Ya'll tend to get uppity when you start thinking that.

[TNWNGR]

There aren't any black leaders. I always wonder why people attempt to assume that blacks need a leader. What is it that makes people feel that blacks need an official spokesperson? Who are the white, Hispanic and Asian leaders?

I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of work or interactions on community projects, forums and committees? That's where I've met the business, educational and religious leaders of different race and gender.

Don't you realize that you all need to be led around by a good leader like the children that ya'll are? We can't have all y'all walking around thinking that you can make decisions as individuals. Ya'll tend to get uppity when you start thinking that.

I'm hoping this is sarcastic humor which if so is in poor taste if not this line of thought isn't new and was once widely proscribed to. It didn't make it right then either.

Edited July 18, 2015 by TNWNGR

[Chucktshoes]

I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of work or interactions on community projects, forums and committees? That's where I've met the business, educational and religious leaders of different race and gender.
I'm hoping this is sarcastic humor which if so is in poor taste if not this line of thought isn't new and was once widely proscribed to. It didn't make it right then either.

Yes, it was meant to be bitingly sarcastic humor. While maybe not to your taste, it was done with a point. A point that is related to the first part of your post that you directed at Links.

You talk about your interactions with community projects, etc. and the "community leaders" you met there. Those folks may well have been leaders respected by their communities, communities in which they actually had personal involvement. Communities whose numbers were likely measured in the hundreds or a few thousand. When folks (especially white folks) speak questioningly about "where are the leaders in the black community" they are (most likely unintentionally) expressing a reductive and condescending POV that treats black folks as a single minded monolith needing to be directed. It is a subtle and insidious mental exercise that takes a group of individuals who vary greatly across all political and many demographic spectrums and by using one demographic point turns them into a single entity that is "other". It is a trap I have fallen victim to in the past and likely will again in the future. It's the same mental trap when we rant about wanting to know "where are the moderate Muslims to denounce _________ horrible act." It is simply creating a straw man, a construct that is easier to dismiss without having to engage individuals about specific problems or issues and acknowledge that solutions are complicated.

[Links2k]

I'm guessing you haven't done a lot of work or interactions on community projects, forums and committees? That's where I've met the business, educational and religious leaders of different race and gender.

No I haven't had the privilege of working on committees with different races and genders. Edited July 18, 2015 by LINKS2K

[Links2k]

Yes, it was meant to be bitingly sarcastic humor. While maybe not to your taste, it was done with a point. A point that is related to the first part of your post that you directed at Links.
You talk about your interactions with community projects, etc. and the "community leaders" you met there. Those folks may well have been leaders respected by their communities, communities in which they actually had personal involvement. Communities whose numbers were likely measured in the hundreds or a few thousand. When folks (especially white folks) speak questioningly about "where are the leaders in the black community" they are (most likely unintentionally) expressing a reductive and condescending POV that treats black folks as a single minded monolith needing to be directed. It is a subtle and insidious mental exercise that takes a group of individuals who vary greatly across all political and many demographic spectrums and by using one demographic point turns them into a single entity that is "other". It is a trap I have fallen victim to in the past and likely will again in the future. It's the same mental trap when we rant about wanting to know "where are the moderate Muslims to denounce _________ horrible act." It is simply creating a straw man, a construct that is easier to dismiss without having to engage individuals about specific problems or issues and acknowledge that solutions are complicated.

Well said. Edited July 18, 2015 by LINKS2K