US Military moving to 9mm JHP?!

[graycrait]

http://bearingarms.com/u-s-military-makes-monumental-shift-hollowpoint-pistol-ammunition/

[runco]

I thought there was some type of treaty that prevents hollow point from being used in military

[Garufa]

I thought there was some type of treaty that prevents hollow point from being used in military

 

That would be the Hague Convention....as mentioned in the article.  ;)

[LagerHead]

'Bout damn time.

[Grunt67]

'Bout damn time.

 

Totally agree! I never got the hang of that FMJ humane thing myself. You're shooting to kill the guy, he's not going to file a complaint.

[DaveTN]

What? The military needs to do something to improve the 9mm? Say it ain’t so Joe, say it ain’t so!

[Caster]

I wish they'd go to a Barnes 70g TSX bullet for 5,56.  Imagine how GREEN they'd be, NO LEAD!!!  The 7 twist barrels would love that bullet and mister raghead would really hate it.  

[Clod Stomper]

That would be the Hague Convention....as mentioned in the article. ;)

Which, as far as I know, was never ratified by US. So we aren't bound by it.

It's a silly rule anyway. Making ammunition more humane? Psssshh.

[hipower]

So now we get ready for the 9mmJHP shortage?

[shotgunshooter]

It only applies in international conflicts between two or more nations.

[Bill4282]

The theory behind FMJ rounds was that a complete pass-through was more humane than a "dum-dum" bullet. Now they are concerned with where the pass-through bullet ends up. PS - FBI going back to 9mm since the ballistics have been improved and match .40 and less wear and tear on guns and shooters.


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[jtmaze]

Here we go. Big and slow or small and fast. 1911 or Glock?? Everyone ready.


JTM
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[Steelharp]

Caliber has yet to be decided, apparently.

[dcloudy777]

Switching to a modern 124gr or 147gr 9mm +P JHP would be a fantastic idea that would make tons of sense.

 

So, I'm sure it will never happen.....

[btq96r]

Caliber has yet to be decided, apparently.

 

I'm sure it hasn't.   :rolleyes:

 

It'll be 9mm, the whole JHP ammo inclusion sealed that.  They wanted something better than 9mm ball ammo, which would make you think .45 is the way to go, but then you have to remember that this gun will be carried by officers, senior NCO's, and a handful of combat support troops that go to the range 2-4 times a year on average.  Switching them to .45 will make qual scores drop, and the Army doesn't want that.  Using 9mm JHP is the best all-around decision they could come to, they just need the lawyers to make it good to go.

 

For Special Operations troops, they will keep on using what they want based on operational needs.  No change there.  

[dcloudy777]

I'm sure it hasn't.   :rolleyes:

 

It'll be 9mm, the whole JHP ammo inclusion sealed that.  They wanted something better than 9mm ball ammo, which would make you think .45 is the way to go, but then you have to remember that this gun will be carried by officers, senior NCO's, and a handful of combat support troops that go to the range 2-4 times a year on average.  Switching them to .45 will make qual scores drop, and the Army doesn't want that.  Using 9mm JHP is the best all-around decision they could come to, they just need the lawyers to make it good to go.

 

For Special Operations troops, they will keep on using what they want based on operational needs.  No change there.  

 

The idea that .45ACP JHP incapacitates any more reliably than 9MM+P JHP is highly debatable.  The 9mm is the only handgun cartridge that makes any sense for a military sidearm these days.

 

With the .45 you give up capacity and follow-up shot speed, and gain practically nothing.

[btq96r]

The idea that .45ACP JHP incapacitates any more reliably than 9MM+P JHP is highly debatable.  The 9mm is the only handgun cartridge that makes any sense for a military sidearm these days.

 

With the .45 you give up capacity and follow-up shot speed, and gain practically nothing.

 

You're looking at this from a logic based, ballistics and reliability standard.  That's your first mistake.

 

This is the Army.  It's pistol will needs to be just right for females, limp-wristed men, and just bad shots overall to fire well enough to qualify on pop up targets out to a max distance of 31 meters (33.9 yards) with on a semi-annual basis.  Non pop-up targets are fired at from about 25 meters (27.34 yards).

 

The Army will make sure the pistol can ensure people can meet the standard.  That's the primary factor in selection. 

[E4 No More]

I'm sure it hasn't.   :rolleyes:

 

It'll be 9mm, the whole JHP ammo inclusion sealed that.  They wanted something better than 9mm ball ammo, which would make you think .45 is the way to go, but then you have to remember that this gun will be carried by officers, senior NCO's, and a handful of combat support troops that go to the range 2-4 times a year on average.  Switching them to .45 will make qual scores drop, and the Army doesn't want that.  Using 9mm JHP is the best all-around decision they could come to, they just need the lawyers to make it good to go.

 

For Special Operations troops, they will keep on using what they want based on operational needs.  No change there.  

So what you're saying is the Army can't shoot...got it! Why not give them all .22LR and problem solved? :shrug:

[E4 No More]

BTW: Wasn't it not too long ago the military was fussing about the lack of penetration of the 5.56 on the battlefield? Now they worry about over-penetration?

[btq96r]

So what you're saying is the Army can't shoot...

 

With pistols, hell no.

 

We used to call it the "officer qualification" because on the qual ranges, you would get more ammo than targets.  To quote directly from the field manual on the qual standards...

a. Extra Rounds. For each table of the CPQC, the firer is given extra rounds to reengage missed targets. Although only 30 targets will be exposed during the entire course, each firer will receive 40 rounds of ammunition. Hitting a target with an additional round during the exposure time is just as effective as hitting it with the first round. Consequently, the firer is not penalized for using or not using the extra ammunition. However, any unused ammunition must be turned in at the end of the table, and may not be used in any other table.

 

They also get eight seconds without a target present to change magazines...which is absurd.  

 

Pistol shooting in the Army is a close to checking the block as it can be while actually still putting rounds downrange. 

[A.J. Holst]

Are the 8 seconds a hold over from when they were carrying and reloading the S&W M1917?

[DaveTN]

BTW: Wasn't it not too long ago the military was fussing about the lack of penetration of the 5.56 on the battlefield? Now they worry about over-penetration?

No, they were complaining about its inability to make an armed opponent unable or unwilling to fire his weapon at them. Same for the 9.

[btq96r]

Are the 8 seconds a hold over from when they were carrying and reloading the S&W M1917?

 

No idea.  I just know that the magazines are loaded in specific amounts, so that you have to do a reload in the middle a few times during the qual.  From the time the exposure of the target that uses the last round of a magazine ends, eight seconds pass until the next one comes up.  One of the mag changes comes between firing tables as well. 

 

Pistol shooting in the Army is only slightly more difficult as the TN HCP class.  The only hardships from it come in how rigid the Army runs their ranges with full battle rattle required for wear.

[Sunfish]

It really does not make any difference. Shoot your enemy until he gets a funny look on his face and then shoot him some more. The US Army needs higher capacity magazines. 

[nightrunner]

It really does not make any difference. Shoot your enemy until he gets a funny look on his face and then shoot him some more. The US Army needs higher capacity magazines.

They already have 17rd mags in their M9s. Only thing higher that I am aware of is the XDM9 at 19rounds and the FN 5.7 at 20 rounds.