Is this sign incorrect now?

[The Legion]

I live in Bartlett, TN and we have been able to carry in our parks since I believe 2009, but could not carry if any school activity was going on in the park.  With the new park carry laws in place we should now be able to carry if we are not in the “Immediate Area” of the school activity.  Am I correct on this or not.  If I am correct the sign that is posted at the Bartlett parks would need to be changed.  Below is a picture of the sign that was put up in 2009.

 

[monkeylizard]

You are correct, but the signs don't have to come down. They're just incorrect. They will be removed as maintenance requires it.

[chances R]

Depends........on what the interpetation of 'immediate vicinity" means.  Will be best to recreate somewhere else if a school is using the property unless you have money to spend arguing your point in court.  Where they can really argue the point is if there is a common parking area.

[Oh Shoot]

Depends........on what the interpetation of 'immediate vicinity" means.  Will be best to recreate somewhere else if a school is using the property unless you have money to spend arguing your point in court.  Where they can really argue the point is if there is a common parking area.

 

You said in another thread "Since I teach the carry course I try and stay on top of such topics...." Not so much on this one, I'm afraid.

 

Both 39-17-1311 and 39-17-1309 have been significantly amended regarding carry in parks. In short, the "anywhere on the property" on the sign is no longer correct, and "immediate vicinity" only applies to a specific type of park area where school events may occur.

 

Research the the "carry in parks" threads here on TGO or the actual final passed version of the bill:

 

http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/109/CCRReports/CC0001.pdf

 

However, as far as the sign having to come down at any given time, the answer is no, which is also prescribed in the bill.

 

- OS

Edited July 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

Understand it has been amended and that the language is vague.  That is why I mentioned the parking lot.  If kids are loading up on the school bus and one is carrying, you are in the immediate vicinity.  While the law is changed it can still get one in a bind which can lead to expensive days in court.  Do you not agree?  Also I did not agree with the sign totally.....I did start out with 'depends'.  Bottom line is that one cannot carry in a park and be in proximity to the students.......whatever or whoever is measuring distances that day.

Edited July 8, 2015 by chances R

[Oh Shoot]

Understand it has been amended and that the language is vague.  That is why I mentioned the parking lot.  If kids are loading up on the school bus and one is carrying, you are in the immediate vicinity.  While the law is changed it can still get one in a bind which can lead to expensive days in court.  Do you not agree?

 

No. 

 

Only one type area within a park has relevance for no carry in immediate vicinity when used by a school, and a parking lot ain't it. I'll let you find out what that is, since you don't seem to know now.

 

The sign is no longer correct.

 

There are of course "gray" areas in the revisions to both statutes, but no more so than is the norm for TN weapons laws. They involve "know or should have known" and of course as always "immediate vicinity". Hell, "immediate vicinity" as far as separation of firearm and ammo has never been precisely defined either.

 

- OS

Edited July 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

So, for instance, at Victor Ashe Park the high school cross country meet is held there.  I decide I want to play frisbee golf, or fish in the pond.  To me that would be off limits for carry as the running course puts me in the immediate vicinity of the athletes.  On the other hand, I could carry and watch a local club league play on the soccer field or adjacent softball field.  At least that is my understanding.  OS do you see it differently?

[Oh Shoot]

So, for instance, at Victor Ashe Park the high school cross country meet is held there.  I decide I want to play frisbee golf, or fish in the pond.  To me that would be off limits for carry as the running course puts me in the immediate vicinity of the athletes.  On the other hand, I could carry and watch a local club league play on the soccer field or adjacent softball field.  At least that is my understanding.  OS do you see it differently?

 

Dunno. Maybe.  What's the "cross country running course"?  How far away from your activity would it be? I would think "immediate vicinity" would have to be "pert close".

 

One can postulate dozens of hypothetical encounter situations, and any number of those could be quite brief, too, like a cross country race that whizzes by you and is gone as opposed to sitting in the bleachers for a high school contest, etc.

 

All in all, I don't think it's going to much of an issue. It is structured so that you have the option of simply vacating the area after you know something is happening if you want to play it totally safe. And I don't foresee squads of LEOs running around with measuring tapes checking for guns or whatever every time there's a school related event in a park.

 

The point of the thread is being lost, which is that an entire park is no longer off limits just because a school function takes place on certain pertinent parts of it as per the sign in post one.

 

- OS

Edited July 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[chances R]

...............

 

The point of the thread is being lost, which is that an entire park is no longer off limits just because a school function takes place on certain pertinent parts of it as per the sign in post one.

 

- OS

And from the beginning I agree with you on that point, it was really the hypothetical distance that makes the water muddy.

[Oh Shoot]

And from the beginning I agree with you on that point, it was really the hypothetical distance that makes the water muddy.

 

Sigh,  you didn't indicate that the sign was in any way incorrect. But it is, as that wording clearly communicates the contention that carry is prohibited anywhere in the park while a school related function is being conducted anywhere in the park.

 

Plus they are prejudiced against golfers. ;)

 

- OS

[chances R]

Depends........on what the interpetation of 'immediate vicinity" means.  Will be best to recreate somewhere else if a school is using the property unless you have money to spend arguing your point in court.  Where they can really argue the point is if there is a common parking area.

 OS, yeah I can see what you mean.  But without getting wordy that was what 'Depends" was referring to along with 'immediate vicinity'.  I would imagine for the unclean-non permitted gun totin' individual the sign may be more correct.....but am not sure about that.  If my errant Frisbee hits a track athlete and I bend over to render aid and my carry piece shows there may be an issue as well.  Grey areas, vague laws for sure.  If the school shows up where I am it may be time to leave and rotate my shoe laces or something else important rather than tempt fate.  Sometimes the course of least resistance is better than becoming a court case. 

[Oh Shoot]

.... I would imagine for the unclean-non permitted gun totin' individual the sign may be more correct.....but am not sure about that.  ..

 

It's true that a non-permit holder faces a Class A 'meanor for carrying on park property in addition to the Class A 'meanor for carrying anywhere under 39-17-1307.

 

However, I don't see much logic in a sign warning someone who is already committing a criminal act that he is about to commit an additional one!

 

- OS

Edited July 9, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[A.J. Holst]

Enact enough laws with vague language and open interpretation you make criminals out of the law abiding...

[Bill4282]

Keep your shooter concealed, don't tell you got one and the points are moot. If you do have to use it, you are protected by the statute. Like a ranger told me - the law gives you permission to carry, not shoot or brandish; use some common sense. PS - leave the Glock sweatshirt at home.


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