A weird encounter...

[Guest Rugerman]

The other night, my wife and I were coming back from Texas Roadhouse with our two baby boys in the backseat of the car. We get into Dayton, and turn down our road when a car pulls behind us and turns on their brights, occassionally flashing them. Well, I try to remain calm as I turn into my driveway and pull into my garage. But what do you know? The car pulls into my driveway with their brights on, and another car does the same. I grab my CZ RAMI 2075 9mm and get out of the car, only to have a bright flashlight (and car headlights) shining in my face. The gun is a bit hidden, and as I am about to bring it up the man says as he walks INTO my garage:

"Uh, sorry sir, we were looking for a blue honda, not a Mazda."

It was a county OFFICER walking into my garage uninvited without ever turning his blue lights on and identifying himself. I put the gun in the front seat of the car without him seeing it and he explains there was some "juvenile behavior" going on in the neighborhood and they were investigating, and sorry to bother me. Dumbfounded and slackjawed, I don't know what to say as he drives away with his partner, AND the other policecar that never identified itself that was in my driveway.

Anyway, should I make waves about this or just let it go? Were they in the right to not turn their blue lights on, to pull into my driveway uninvited, and to walk into my garage blinding me with a flashlight? What would you have done?

[BrasilNuts]

I would report it, not to be a jerk or anything, but they have those blue lights for a reason. With so many BGs using impersonation of a police officer nowadays to get people off guard it's a real issue. By not identifying themselves they endangered you, your family, and themselves.

[Guest Astra900]

I would have chewed his ass out on the spot. As long as you don't get carried away or say something he could twist into a threat, there's nothing he can do about it.

I would have said something like: Next time you pull a stunt like that, you follow the rules and turn on your blues! Do you realize that I am legally armed, and if I had of had it in my hand when you so rudely put your flashlight in my face, my wife would be a widow right now 'cause I have no doubt you would have shot me. That was very foolish.

By telling him off like that, he gets the reprimand he deserves for doing stupid crap like that, but by telling him that you would not have survived a confrontation with him and his partner, you allow him to keep his ego intact, thereby reducing your chances of him taking it personally, and blackballing you.

Cops are humans too. They make mistakes just like the rest of us. It's not against the law to tell them they are NOT doing their job. Many cops think that wearing that badge makes them right no matter what, those are the :poop:heads that you don't need to offend. If he's any kind of real man, he would listen to you, possibly try to defend his actions, and consider your point of view 'cause a wise man will change his mind but a fool never will. If he doesn't respond like a man, he's a piece of and should be fired.

If I were you, I would NOT go "downtown" and cause a scene, it will only haunt you later. A polite phone call to the dept supervisor explaining the situation from your point of view, with the phrase "it's no big deal" would be as far as I would now that it's after the fact. Cops stick together, and when offended too many of them get vindictive.

To any cops on this forum, I don't hate you if you do your job. You know the ones I'm talking about.

[Reservoir Dog]

Were they in the right to not turn their blue lights on, to pull into my driveway uninvited, and to walk into my garage blinding me with a flashlight?

Yes they were in the right, as long as they were in the performance of their duties, which it sounds like they were. They were looking for a specific car, and thought your car was the one they were looking for. It happens.

There is no "rule" that they have to turn on their blue lights. However, I will agree that they should have properly identified themselves a little sooner, as you had no idea who they were. I would attribute that to a little lack of common sense versus some sort of improper behavior. Like Hanlon's Razor says: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

Oddly, I had a similar experience a few years ago. My mother lives next to one of those quick loan places. The store had been burglarized a couple of times, so the local police were on the lookout. I pulled into my mom's driveway one night (the driveway is next to the loan store). About halfway up the drive, bright lights appeared directly behind my car. I pulled up to the carport and stopped. As I exited my car, I noticed that it was the local police. I still have no idea where this guy came from, as I never saw his car anywhere. The officer saw that I was going to the house, and he stated that they were on the lookout for any suspicious activity at the loan place. I told him I was visiting my mom, and I thanked him for keeping an eye on the area. He left on his way.

The incident was a little startling, but I knew that he was just doing his job. I did not bother me. Personally, I would just let it go. With two young children, I am sure there are other things to be concerned about. I am glad everything turned out okay.

[Guest Rugerman]

Yes they were in the right, as long as they were in the performance of their duties, which it sounds like they were. They were looking for a specific car, and thought your car was the one they were looking for. It happens.

There is no "rule" that they have to turn on their blue lights. However, I will agree that they should have properly identified themselves a little sooner, as you had no idea who they were. I would attribute that to a little lack of common sense versus some sort of improper behavior. Like Hanlon's Razor says: "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

I agree with you here. I think they were doing their jobs and I have no hard feelings, but I feel that them coming INTO MY GARAGE uninvited without identifying themselves is kind of....absurd. Is there a good reason NOT to turn your blues on in this case? I think it was a dumb move on their part more than anything, but what would have happened if the nice officer in my garage would have been met by me arising from my vehicle with aforementioned CZ Rami pointed in his general direction?

[Reservoir Dog]

Is there a good reason NOT to turn your blues on in this case? I think it was a dumb move on their part more than anything,...

I agree, it was kind of dumb. It is possible they did not want to turn on their lights in order to keep a low profile, and not notify the whole area the they police were around. Or they were probably trying to be sneaky, and try to catch their bad guy before he knew what was going on. The reason would depend on the situation, and why they were looking for that blue Honda.

... but what would have happened if the nice officer in my garage would have been met by me arising from my vehicle with aforementioned CZ Rami pointed in his general direction?

I think we know what would have happened, and it would not have been good for either party involved. I am glad that did not happen.

[Fallguy]

My

I agree with Reservoir Dog & Rugerman. They well within their "rights", but they for sure should have identified themselves as LEOs sooner, either by the use of the blues or announcing as such when walking up to you.

Doesn't sound like any intentional bad actions on their part, but could have ben really bad.

[EMTRN]

They should have ID'd themselves sooner. They might not have realized you could not see their uniforms. Like others have posted, we do not have to have our lights on unless it is needed to get to a call, or we are on a traffic stop.

[Guest tedbo]

How about a "Stop! Get back! Identify yourselves!" putting it that way I would think they would immediately holler out "police!"

It would tell them that you are concerned for you and your wife's safety,they would stop and maybe put their hand on their gun without drawing and they would reevaluate their tactics for that split second preventing anyone getting shot.

I would think that the police wouldn't expect that type of dialogue coming from someone doing something questionable.

Am I dreaming?

Edited November 14, 2008 by tedbo

[I_Like_Pie]

I am sure your wife is pretty upset too! If you don't try to let them know personally...If she is level headed under stress I would have HER (if she would be willing and she agrees that some things should have been done differently) visit the police office and have them fully understand the situation.

I have found that people respond much more favorably to angry women than men for some reason...especially in small settings like the Dayton PO.

I am very interested to hear their reaction if you try to get one from them...

[Guest JLowe]

Yes, they should have Identified themselves sooner. But, if they had turned on their blue lights, the would have been seizing your freedom by detention. If they had no probable cause to detain you, then they would have been violating your civil rights. By doing what they did, they were using reasonable suspicion to make contact with you at your home. As soon as they exited their cars, they should have stated "Police/Sheriff can I speak with you for a minute" and then explain what the situation was. I understand your response by preparing yourself and arming yourself. The problem with officers sometimes is that they get complacent and feel that bad things won't happen to them because it is not a "high risk" situation. I'm glad it didn't turn out for the worse for you and your family and the officers.

[Fallguy]

But weren't they attempting to seize him by flashing their bright lights as they were still driving down the street? Or it least I think it appears that way.

It would seem if the reasonably believed the vehicle matched the description of one they were looking for, that would be enough PC for traffic stop just as it was for them to come into the driveway.

[Guest jackdog]

Sounds scary as all hell for all involved. Think the cops should have identified themselves a lot sooner.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

But weren't they attempting to seize him by flashing their bright lights as they were still driving down the street? Or it least I think it appears that way.

It would seem if the reasonably believed the vehicle matched the description of one they were looking for, that would be enough PC for traffic stop just as it was for them to come into the driveway.

No. Flashing bright lights isn't a seizure. By itself, the bright lights aren't a demonstration of authority such that a reasonable person wouldn't feel free to continue on. You don't have to yield to bright lights behind you, just blue or red lights.

It's an attempt at intimidation and an attempt at precipitating a driving infraction that would be concrete PC for seizure. It's common for the police to do this such that someone will hit their brakes, speed up, swerve a bit, or otherwise drive "erratically". You then have good PC if it goes to court. It also lights up the plate and the interior of the car well.

These officers should've hit the blue lights as soon as they came on your property. Their boss should discuss this with them. A polite phone call could take care of everything without you seeming like a jerk, and without them getting into trouble. If you're honest about your concerns, I think they'll understand you and be better off for hearing you out.

EDIT: the issue with the car's description would actually fall under Terry and reasonable suspicion. A mere description of a car is not PC, even with today's sad state of the Fourth Amendment.

Edited November 17, 2008 by Abominable_Hillbilly

[Fallguy]

No. Flashing bright lights isn't a seizure. By itself, the bright lights aren't a demonstration of authority such that a reasonable person wouldn't feel free to continue on. You don't have to yield to bright lights behind you, just blue or red lights.

I understand that...I was saying that IMO it was an attempt to stop the car.

It's an attempt at intimidation and an attempt at precipitating a driving infraction that would be concrete PC for seizure. It's common for the police to do this such that someone will hit their brakes, speed up, swerve a bit, or otherwise drive "erratically". You then have good PC if it goes to court. It also lights up the plate and the interior of the car well.

Hmmmm....I guess that is possible, although I'm not sure that is the situation in this or all cases. I did know the use of bright lights/takedown light or a spot light was to light up the interior of the car/plate and to hinder the driver's vision as the officer approaches. (So can't get a good shot etc...)

These officers should've hit the blue lights as soon as they came on your property.

That would have been a good way to identify themselves as law enforcement.

EDIT: the issue with the car's description would actually fall under Terry and reasonable suspicion. A mere description of a car is not PC, even with today's sad state of the Fourth Amendment.

Well guess I was just using the wrong term, I just meant I though they had enough reason to stop the car if they thought it was one they had seen doing something wrong.

[Farman]

I’d like to hear from some of the LEOs on this site about this. IMO, the probable cause was they can’t tell one blue foreign car from another. If they are going to make a “stopâ€, they should light you up. When they see you open your garage door they should have turned on the blues and ID’d themselves on your property. NOW, if this happened to me and the wife (harley309), we would not pull into the driveway, we’d keep going and call 911 to report suspicious vehicles following us. (IMPORTANT MESSAGE HERE….DON’T STOP AT YOUR HOUSE)

Now, a week later, I think it’s time for a face to face, very politely and respectfully, with a road patrol supervisor. Explain the situation and your concerns about the safety of your family, your fears of possibly being carjacked and that you legally carry. There was certainly the possibility of you drawing down on them and that would have been very ugly and your wife might have become your widow. If she can turn on the tears (and I know this from personal experience), take her with you.

Please follow up with this and let us know what happens.

[Fallguy]

Good advice on the not stopping at your house and calling 911 Farman.

FYI: JLowe and EMTRN are both LEOs.

Anyone with the gold badge icon under their name is either a current or former LEO.

[Farman]

My Dad used to tell me “Confucius say, is better to be thought a fool then to open one’s mouth and have all doubt removed”, but I will continue on anyway.

First… I thought it was common practice to have bright lights on the BG to blind him, to give the LEOs an advantage. (makes it difficult for the detainee to see uniforms) The uniforms should at least be ”Tacticool” with vests and plenty of PD markings.

Second… When working undercover or on tactical details a marked unit is, or should be, readily available to respond, to identify personnel as real LEO units and not carjackers or home invaders. Unmarked, as opposed to undercover units should have identifying lighting, this, in addition to the arriving marked units.

Third… Rugerman, did you do anything that may have brought attention to yourself? Roll through a stop sign, drive too fast or too slow? Take the scenic route, or just drive a blue compact foreign car?

I’m done. I’m new here and maybe I don’t know any better. Please don’t take offense.

[Guest Boomhower]

I would have never pulled in my driveway with a bright lighting jack rabbit on my tail. Especially if there were two of them.

Should have just kept on driving and they would have either figured out what they wanted or eventually hit the blues and pulled you over. Either one would have been much better than seeing bright lights from a car, a flashlight in my face and a dark spot walking towards my inside my garage.

[Fivestring63]

Good advice on the not stopping at your house and calling 911 Farman.

That is very good advice that I have actually used before and have told my former wife to do as well.

A couple of nights, she had somebody that was actually following her from church but pulled away before she got home. He pulled up beside her one night and saw her on the cell phone and he took off and it never happened again. I told her to drive to the local police station while calling 911 or to a very public and crowded place. Or if she were close to home, to circle around the block and call me and I would meet her somewhere.

There was a car that followed me about 5 miles one night and instead of pulling in my driveway I circled around. He kept going on straight. He just lived in the same neighborhood as me. You never know though.

[Guest Rugerman]

I'm going to clarify some points.

I wasn't doing anything suspicious. I just happened to drive a blue Mazda6. They flashed their brights in an attempt to see the logo on the back of the car. I was unable to see that the car behind me was a police car, and was unable to see the officer when I got out of my car, because his lights were still on and he had a mag lite shining at me. I don't think this was a case of authoritative abuse or anything like that. I just don't think the guy was thinking. If I would have known this was an officer behind me I wouldn't have had the gun in my hand. My original thought when I was about to pull into my driveway was that the person behind me was a friend or neighbor letting me know they were behind me, so I thought nothing of pulling into my driveway. My wife is pretty level-headed, but after the officer left she was pretty upset. I talked to some locals who are Dayton born and bred (as I am, by far, NOT) and they advised me to do nothing. I still have not brought it up. It still blows my mind.