Carrying a Handgun in TN

[conn_air7]

_{Another question for you guys: I just got a new lock box (under drivers seat) to store my gun in when I do not have the gun on me. I am fully aware that I can't carry after I have had an alcoholic beverage, but what is the law on having it in your car during this time? If I go out to dinner and drink one beer, is it okay to have my gun in that lockbox?} 

[monkeylizard]

This has come up on a few other threads lately. There's no BAC number for "under the influence" in regards to handguns. Read TCA 39-17-1321 for the actual law on handguns and alcohol/drugs. It doesn't say anything about .08, just "under the influence".

[Oh Shoot]

_{Another question for you guys: I just got a new lock box (under drivers seat) to store my gun in when I do not have the gun on me. I am fully aware that I can't carry after I have had an alcoholic beverage, but what is the law on having it in your car during this time? If I go out to dinner and drink one beer, is it okay to have my gun in that lockbox?} 

 

Dunno. Gray. Suggests a good intention (that the road to hell is paved with :))

 

What would seem to always suffice against "intent to go armed" is "an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon"

 

On the third hand, the carry while intoxicated doesn't mention "intent to go armed" (loaded firearm), just a "handgun".

 

It's also interesting that it no longer seems to be unlawful to possess a long gun (loaded or not) while drinking or drunk, unless it's in the confines of a public establishment!

 

- OS

Edited July 6, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[john455]

Welcome!

Read and study the thought process of Gecko45:

http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hahahaha.


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OMG thank you I haven't laughed that hard in a long time, but now I am scared to go to the mall, between the gangs and butt rapists I don't feel my G30 is enough protection HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

[conn_air7]

Dunno. Gray. Suggests a good intention (that the road to hell is paved with :))

 

What would seem to always suffice against "intent to go armed" is "an unloaded rifle, shotgun or handgun not concealed on or about the person and the ammunition for the weapon was not in the immediate vicinity of the person or weapon"

 

On the third hand, the carry while intoxicated doesn't mention "intent to go armed" (loaded firearm), just a "handgun".

 

It's also interesting that it no longer seems to be unlawful to possess a long gun (loaded or not) while drinking or drunk, unless it's in the confines of a public establishment!

 

- OS

 

It would be really be nice to have a solid answer on this though. I understand that a lot of people despise the idea of alcohol and guns, but I feel that the amount of alcohol is what really matters. Say I am headed to Chattanooga to grab a bite to eat for dinner, I order one beer to drink with my dinner, I personally do not see this is as "wrong." As far as the legal side, I am not really sure how the state defines "under the influence." If you are carrying completely concealed, I don't think it's ever going to be an issue. However, I guess you have to decide if it's a chance you are willing to take. 

Edited July 8, 2015 by conn_air7

[peejman]

It would be really be nice to have a solid answer on this though. I understand that a lot of people despise the idea of alcohol and guns, but I feel that the amount of alcohol is what really matters. Say I am headed to Chattanooga to grab a bite to eat for dinner, I order one beer to drink with my dinner, I personally do not see this is as "wrong." As far as the legal side, I am not really sure how the state defines "under the influence." If you are carrying completely concealed, I don't think it's ever going to be an issue. However, I guess you have to decide if it's a chance you are willing to take. 

 

 

A solid answer about a law?  :rofl:

[chances R]

A solid answer....You cannot have a sip of alcohol and possess a handgun.  In fact, if you have a couple of beers and get stopped and blow anything or have the 'smell' of alcohol you will have a lot of trouble on your hands if you have a handgun readily available.

[conn_air7]

A solid answer....You cannot have a sip of alcohol and possess a handgun.  In fact, if you have a couple of beers and get stopped and blow anything or have the 'smell' of alcohol you will have a lot of trouble on your hands if you have a handgun readily available.

 

That's what I hear, but where is this information coming from? You couldn't convince me that because you drank one beer that you would rather risk your safety than a bad confrontation with law enforcement. Chances are, no one is going to know you have the gun if you are carrying concealed (whether you had a beer or not). I guess the smart thing to do is avoid the situation, you would think that the law would be more clear about 0 alcohol if that was the case. Thanks for the tip, I'll probably follow that advice.

[GlockSpock]

A solid answer....You cannot have a sip of alcohol and possess a handgun.  In fact, if you have a couple of beers and get stopped and blow anything or have the 'smell' of alcohol you will have a lot of trouble on your hands if you have a handgun readily available.

 

The problem with this "solid answer" is that it is still grey. What if you wake up in the morning, drink one beer because you are that guy, at what point are you able to carry again? A few hours? That afternoon? The next day automagically? What about cough syrup?

 

5 shots of vodka would leave you with impaired judgement a lot longer than the lightest of beers. It is a very vague area unfortunately.

 

Ultimately, I feel it falls into the worse area possible: Common sense. Have one beer at home and then an hour or two later go to town carrying your gun? I like to think you wouldn't be prosecuted for anything. Several hard shots and then try open carrying through the mall? That would and should be consequential.

[conn_air7]

The problem with this "solid answer" is that it is still grey. What if you wake up in the morning, drink one beer because you are that guy, at what point are you able to carry again? A few hours? That afternoon? The next day automagically? What about cough syrup?

 

5 shots of vodka would leave you with impaired judgement a lot longer than the lightest of beers. It is a very vague area unfortunately.

 

Ultimately, I feel it falls into the worse area possible: Common sense. Have one beer at home and then an hour or two later go to town carrying your gun? I like to think you wouldn't be prosecuted for anything. Several hard shots and then try open carrying through the mall? That would and should be consequential.

 

The State actually has to have reasonable evidence to believe that you were impaired at the time of the "incident." 99.9% of the people I know can drink one beer without the slightest bit of impairment. However, with that said, I am sure there is someone out there who could be impaired from it. The bottom line is, legally you could drink a beer and carry without any problems (so long as you aren't "impaired"). Keep in mind, the law enforcement officer you were dealing with would have to have REASONABLE EVIDENCE that you were impaired. In my eyes, carrying a gun after drinking a beer is no different than carrying a pocket knife after a beer. Both could be considered weapons, so why not ban the use of knives after you have had a few drinks? 

[chances R]

Since I teach the carry course I try and stay on top of such topics.  According to someone very close with the local sherrifs office, an attorney, as well as the video put out by the state's DHS, no drinking is allowed while carrying a handgun.  It says nothing about a degree of impairment...says a ton about driving and impairment however.  It simply says you will lose your permit.  They also don't compare knives since you can only throw it once..sort of apples and oranges since no permit is required for your knife.  My statement is from my experience with the course and the safe bet.  I don't argue that you have some valid points........it's that the DHS can revoke your permit for drinking.....not impairment.

[monkeylizard]

Since I teach the carry course I try and stay on top of such topics.  According to someone very close with the local sherrifs office, an attorney, as well as the video put out by the state's DHS, no drinking is allowed while carrying a handgun.  It says nothing about a degree of impairment...says a ton about driving and impairment however.  It simply says you will lose your permit.  They also don't compare knives since you can only throw it once..sort of apples and oranges since no permit is required for your knife.  My statement is from my experience with the course and the safe bet.  I don't argue that you have some valid points........it's that the DHS can revoke your permit for drinking.....not impairment.

 

Not according to the law, they can't. The drinking has to have been done while in possession of the firearm and it must have been done "within the confines of an establishment open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102, are served for consumption on the premises" in order to have the HCP revoked. In other words, you can get drunk as a skunk at a bar without your handgun, then arm yourself. Or you can get drunk at home while armed. You'll be in violation of 39-17-1321 (a ), but that doesn't come with the revocation of an HCP attached as a penalty. You have to have been doing the drinking in an establishment as described above while armed to qualify for the HCP revocation prescribed in 39-17-21(c ).

 

Notice that "handgun" is used in part (a ). You could get as drunk as you want anywhere you want (unarmed), then arm up with a long gun and not be in violation of 39-17-1321. You may or may not be violating other laws about carrying a long gun, but it wouldn't be a violation of -1321.

 

Am I missing something?

Edited July 8, 2015 by monkeylizard

[conn_air7]

Since I teach the carry course I try and stay on top of such topics.  According to someone very close with the local sherrifs office, an attorney, as well as the video put out by the state's DHS, no drinking is allowed while carrying a handgun.  It says nothing about a degree of impairment...says a ton about driving and impairment however.  It simply says you will lose your permit.  They also don't compare knives since you can only throw it once..sort of apples and oranges since no permit is required for your knife.  My statement is from my experience with the course and the safe bet.  I don't argue that you have some valid points........it's that the DHS can revoke your permit for drinking.....not impairment.

 

Good deal, I appreciate you telling me this.

[conn_air7]

Not according to the law, they can't. The drinking has to have been done while in possession of the handgun and it must have been done "within the confines of an establishment open to the public where liquor, wine or other alcoholic beverages, as defined in § 57-3-101(a)(1)(A), or beer, as defined in § 57-6-102, are served for consumption on the premises" in order to have the HCP revoked. In other words, you can get drunk as a skunk at a bar without your handgun, then arm yourself. Or you can get drunk at home while armed. You'll then be in violation of 39-17-1321 (a ), but that doesn't come with the revocation of an HCP attached as a penalty. You have to have been doing the drinking in an establishment as described above while armed to be qualify for the HCP revocation prescribed in 39-17-21(c ).

 

Am I missing something?

 

Essentially what this sound like to me is: It is okay to drink a beer and carry (as long as you are not carrying during the time that you are consuming that beverage). It is also okay to carry a gun after that one beer (as long as you aren't impaired) "according to the law."

[Oh Shoot]

.....

Am I missing something?

 

That is all correct.

 

Though TNDOS can still pull a permit for anyone it deems who "poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public".

 

Which as far as we know has only happened when local LEAs petition them to do so (ala Kwik) or a public stink gets raised (ala James Yeager).

 

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Essentially what this sound like to me is: It is okay to drink a beer and carry (as long as you are not carrying during the time that you are consuming that beverage). ...

 

And only if the carrying and consumption occurs in confines of a public establishment that sells booze for consumption.

 

Beyond that, it's all a crapshoot though, and completely up to prerogative of LEO at the scene as to what happens next after he smells alcohol on your breath.

 

- OS

[chances R]

So you really think you can be floating in your skivvies on a tube with your favorite handgun strapped on, enjoying a six pack and TWRA is going to let you float on off..............well that's  definitely a crapshoot :popcorn:

[Oh Shoot]

So you really think you can be floating in your skivvies on a tube with your favorite handgun strapped on, enjoying a six pack and TWRA is going to let you float on off..............well that's  definitely a crapshoot :popcorn:

 

TWRA does physical test and/or BAC for suspected operation of sail or powered vessel under the influence.

 

Don't know their powers or procedures for various non TWRA offenses, so no idea what would happen in the situation you postulate, but I imagine it would probably vary depending on one's actual behavior and the bent of the particular agent.

 

Ya know what though, I wouldn't recommend anyone doing that, and I wouldn't do it myself, 'cause even I am not a total dumbass. :)

 

- OS

Edited July 8, 2015 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

It would be really be nice to have a solid answer on this though. I understand that a lot of people despise the idea of alcohol and guns, but I feel that the amount of alcohol is what really matters. Say I am headed to Chattanooga to grab a bite to eat for dinner, I order one beer to drink with my dinner, I personally do not see this is as "wrong." As far as the legal side, I am not really sure how the state defines "under the influence." If you are carrying completely concealed, I don't think it's ever going to be an issue. However, I guess you have to decide if it's a chance you are willing to take.

You don’t have a solid answer for DUI.

.08 is a presumption of impairment. You can be convicted of DUI below that amount in most states (I assume Tennessee is that way, but I don’t know that.).

The state doesn’t tell you that you are okay to drive at .07. If pressed to attach a number to drinking and carrying a gun; I’m sure you can guess what it would be.
 

That's what I hear, but where is this information coming from? You couldn't convince me that because you drank one beer that you would rather risk your safety than a bad confrontation with law enforcement. Chances are, no one is going to know you have the gun if you are carrying concealed (whether you had a beer or not). I guess the smart thing to do is avoid the situation, you would think that the law would be more clear about 0 alcohol if that was the case. Thanks for the tip, I'll probably follow that advice.

 
 

The State actually has to have reasonable evidence to believe that you were impaired at the time of the "incident." 99.9% of the people I know can drink one beer without the slightest bit of impairment. However, with that said, I am sure there is someone out there who could be impaired from it. The bottom line is, legally you could drink a beer and carry without any problems (so long as you aren't "impaired"). Keep in mind, the law enforcement officer you were dealing with would have to have REASONABLE EVIDENCE that you were impaired. In my eyes, carrying a gun after drinking a beer is no different than carrying a pocket knife after a beer. Both could be considered weapons, so why not ban the use of knives after you have had a few drinks?

Reasonable evidence would be the cop testifying in court that in his opinion you were under the influence of alcohol. Too impaired to drive would have nothing to do with it, unless of course he was also arresting you for that after you blow to show him you don’t have a BAC above .08%.

You or your attorney would of course argue you weren’t under the influence and based on the testimony in front of him the Judge would decide if you were in violation of the law or not.

[conn_air7]

I do not believe the LEO's opinion is reasonable evidence. Reasonable evidence would be that you were swerving in between the lines (also would have to be proven), a field sobriety test, etc... Heck if the opinion of a cop determined the outcome in the court room we would all be screwed. I've got as much evidence that he was swerving in between the lines unless the cop has hard evidence.


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[conn_air7]

Also, just a side note, I don't plan on carrying my gun when I decide to drink. These are all just curiosity questions a lot of worst case scenarios.


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[zennashton]

My advise for a first time carrier along with all the other great advice is to go out and buy yourself a 1000 rounds of ammo and during a week or two shoot all of it. After you have done that you're much more familiar and comfortable with your firearm.

[chances R]

My advise for a first time carrier along with all the other great advice is to go out and buy yourself a 1000 rounds of ammo and during a week or two shoot all of it. After you have done that you're much more familiar and comfortable with your firearm.

It may help, but you may find yourself ingraining imperfect technique. Perfect practice is what every new shooter needs. Many businesses offer classes. Several places offer day classes or even better multiple days. Tactical Advantage in Knoxville has offerings. Cruel Hand Luke here on this board is also an excellent source for basic shooting on up to Advanced Gun-Fighting skills. I would suggest taking one or two classes every year from a variety of instructors.

[peejman]

I do not believe the LEO's opinion is reasonable evidence. Reasonable evidence would be that you were swerving in between the lines (also would have to be proven), a field sobriety test, etc... Heck if the opinion of a cop determined the outcome in the court room we would all be screwed. I've got as much evidence that he was swerving in between the lines unless the cop has hard evidence.


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Yes, LEO opinion is "evidence" in court, it's called a police report.  LEO testimony is considered "expert" testimony.   So when the LEO tells the judge (in person or writing) that you were impaired even though your BAC was only 0.06, you were impaired.  Who's the judge gonna believe, you or the LEO? 

 

Hence the motivation to be nice, but not say too much when interacting.

Edited July 9, 2015 by peejman

[rmiddle]

Relax.  Being all fidgety making sure your gun is concealed is a dead giveaway and makes people suspicious. 

 

Here's a good summary of the laws...   http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/tennessee.pdf

 

 

Let me see how many of these I have done well carrying?  

 

I think I missed one of two of them.

 

Thanks

Robert