New gun blamed for rise in LA County deputy shootings

[Grand Torino]

The guns don't go bang all by themselves.....just sayin. Idiots.

[TNWNGR]

 I didn't go far enough. Of course the suspension is done in company with remediation of the problems that caused the ND. It's punishment plus retraining, not just punishment. Sorry I didn't talk about that in my earlier post.

Exactly, the suspension means lost wages, that really fixes it in an officers head that they'd better get straightened out. The remedial training, which is fully documented by the way, is to make certain the officer knows what they did wrong and how to do it correctly. That generally fixes that particular problem because the officer knows future consequences are worse. If its a problem officer they'll do enough active stupid stuff compiled to be fired. Agencies that fail to adhere to this end up with serious problems. LASO might not be perfect but its head and shoulders above a lot of other major law enforcement agencies I know of.  

[mikegideon]

. LASO might not be perfect but its head and shoulders above a lot of other major law enforcement agencies I know of.  

 

Seven ND's out of that many officers is pretty close to perfect already.

[Garufa]

Here is a far more in-depth article.....http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-sheriff-guns-20150614-story.html#page=1

[EssOne]

Yes, that's a good article. And I think it revealed what is going on. It has to do with what Jonnin said in reply #21 this morning:

 

 

training aside, it would seem that a tiny # of officers have gotten in the habit of resting their fingers on the trigger with the understanding that the excessive trigger pull won't go off without more force being applied.  This is not working out well for a usable trigger that goes bang when a small amount of force is applied.   I suspect this has nothing to do with training and a lot to do with a small # of people doing it their own way and getting schooled on their mistake.

 

It seems that LASD has always required the Beretta 92's to be carried with the decocker down, and I'll bet a few idiots got in the habit of riding the trigger because they knew the gun wouldn't fire.............ok, now enter the new Smith pistol with the lighter trigger pull and no decocker or manual safety, combine it with the arorementioned bad habit, and it's causing ND's.  You'll notice LAPD also carried the Beretta for years, but with the decocker up, and they've had no problems at all converting to striker fired pistols. I think that's our explanation, guys. I really do.

Edited June 15, 2015 by EssOne

[TNWNGR]

Yes, that's a good article. And I think it revealed what is going on. It has to do with what Jonnin said in reply #21 this morning:

 

 

 

It seems that LASD has always required the Beretta 92's to be carried with the decocker down, and I'll bet a few idiots got in the habit of riding the trigger because they knew the gun wouldn't fire.............ok, now enter the new Smith pistol with the lighter trigger pull and no decocker or manual safety, combine it with the arorementioned bad habit, and it's causing ND's.  You'll notice LAPD also carried the Beretta for years, but with the decocker up, and they've had no problems at all converting to striker fired pistols. I think that's our explanation, guys. I really do.

Concur, but its not uncommon for the heavy DA trigger of a DA/SA pistol to be slightly preset due to piss poor handling practices. All of which reaffirms solid firearms and use of force policies coupled with continuous training.  

[EssOne]

Yep.

[bersaguy]

All I have to say about this is I wish they would have stayed with Beretta's because the new plant here is under construction and I want them to be successful here..............jmho

[EssOne]

Do ya really think Beretta will stay when they find out the State is requiring them to stamp "Go Big Orange!!" on all their guns? :bow:

[bersaguy]

Do ya really think Beretta will stay when they find out the State is requiring them to stamp "Go Big Orange!!" on all their guns? :bow:

If stamping Go Big Orange on their guns helps them sell guns I am sure they will stamp it on them for sure................. :rock:

Edited June 15, 2015 by bersaguy

[K191145]

I know i'm just an armchair civilian but, would it be out of line for me to suggest that the LAPD might want to make some changes to their firearms training? Just saying. It is California, one problem could be liberals handling firearms peroid, that even sounds dangerous by itself.  :eek:

[EssOne]

Certainly not. But I think their training is doing its job. It's just that the usual number of individuals don't want to go along with the program and are taking liberties with firearms policies, and that's what's causing the problem. California cops - Liberals? Huh?!

[TNWNGR]

I know i'm just an armchair civilian but, would it be out of line for me to suggest that the LAPD might want to make some changes to their firearms training? Just saying. It is California, one problem could be liberals handling firearms peroid, that even sounds dangerous by itself.  :eek:

It's LASO not LAPD, two different agencies and both different as the night is day. The biggest issue here is institutional passing the buck by some of the parties involved. Instead of placing the blame squarely in the hands of the offending Deputies someone's attempted to blame it on the equipment. This happens from time to time in larger agencies and a liberal administration will attempt longer reaches. The firearms training is probably not the issue here, remedial training where necessary and a lot of shift level training on not being the next example is the issue.   

[K191145]

Certainly not. But I think their training is doing its job. It's just that the usual number of individuals don't want to go along with the program and are taking liberties with firearms policies, and that's what's causing the problem. California cops - Liberals? Huh?!

 

Like all the North East states, even the conservatives are liberals. It's just that there is a severe lack of something, training or intelligence to have that many ND's in one group.

[DaveTN]

You can’t pull the trigger if your finger isn’t on it; and that shouldn't be an issue. They are going through the same learning curve Officers did went they went from revolvers to Tupperware. I want to know why the guy had his finger on the trigger when he fell over a baby stroller. Or are they trying to imply the fall fired the weapon?

[EssOne]

K1911 and DaveTN - take a look at replies 30 and 31 and I think you'll see where the problem is. 

[TNWNGR]

You can’t pull the trigger if your finger isn’t on it; and that shouldn't be an issue. They are going through the same learning curve Officers did went they went from revolvers to Tupperware. I want to know why the guy had his finger on the trigger when he fell over a baby stroller. Or are they trying to imply the fall fired the weapon?

Yep, training learning curve, I remember very well the transitional training from DA/SA revolvers to pistols. It was an educational experience to say the least.

You also have the right of it in placing the blame solely in the hands of the officer who tripped over the baby stroller, who is probably still being dogged about that stunt by his shift personnel.

[K191145]

Yes, that's a good article. And I think it revealed what is going on. It has to do with what Jonnin said in reply #21 this morning:

 

 

 

It seems that LASD has always required the Beretta 92's to be carried with the decocker down, and I'll bet a few idiots got in the habit of riding the trigger because they knew the gun wouldn't fire.............ok, now enter the new Smith pistol with the lighter trigger pull and no decocker or manual safety, combine it with the arorementioned bad habit, and it's causing ND's.  You'll notice LAPD also carried the Beretta for years, but with the decocker up, and they've had no problems at all converting to striker fired pistols. I think that's our explanation, guys. I really do.

 

I can see that, habits are hard to break, you have to replace them with different habits. In this case, "riding the trigger" is a habit that should never be picked learned and all our comments for 3 pages go right to that bad habit.

[K191145]

You can’t pull the trigger if your finger isn’t on it; and that shouldn't be an issue. They are going through the same learning curve Officers did went they went from revolvers to Tupperware. I want to know why the guy had his finger on the trigger when he fell over a baby stroller. Or are they trying to imply the fall fired the weapon?

 

Well here's the problem, it's their instructors.

 

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/JMH42/media/Feinstein%20AK-47_zpsiwlet5xf.jpg.html][/URL]

[EssOne]

Nailed it!!  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  

Edited June 16, 2015 by EssOne

[TNWNGR]

I'd almost forgotten that DF gun hater picture and thinking they should have put a Thompson SMG in her hands with that suit coat she was wearing. Can you imagine how many gangsters that'd bought her off would have laughed their axes (intentional spelling BTW) off at her?  

[btq96r]

If the Beretta had too long of a trigger pull in DA for them, they should have been hitting the squeeze ball to make the pimp hand strong.  There is no excuse whatsoever for an ND from someone who handles firearms for a living, and any instance should be dealt with severely.  In the Army, loosing rank, pay and pulling extra duty was pretty common...for enlisted, officers usually skated, but that didn't make it right.  Bad safety habits need consequences to produce a corrective atmosphere.

[K191145]

If the Beretta had too long of a trigger pull in DA for them, they should have been hitting the squeeze ball to make the pimp hand strong.  There is no excuse whatsoever for an ND from someone who handles firearms for a living, and any instance should be dealt with severely.  In the Army, loosing rank, pay and pulling extra duty was pretty common...for enlisted, officers usually skated, but that didn't make it right.  Bad safety habits need consequences to produce a corrective atmosphere.

 

Usually there is consequences for a ND. A hole in the leg or worse.

[btq96r]

Usually there is consequences for a ND. A hole in the leg or worse.

 

That's just Darwin's consequence, I meant administrative.  Suffering one shouldn't get you off the hook for the other.

[tercel89]

It all boils down to this: The depuites or officers or troopers , whatever , should practice at work and then when at home , just unload their pistol , then practice while sitting on the couch or outside or wherever. Before I used a Glock at my job , I used a Ruger P-series which is DA/SA and my transition to the Glock 22 was very easy. I took the Glock 22 apart and understood how it worked and researched it on my own and it was very clear to me . I did the same with the Ruger P94 that I carried before the Glock 22. That was in 1997 which was way before the internet and computers were all available to me . Now days there is Youtube and such which will provide good information on how certain guns will work .

 I know that when you are at home , you aren't getting paid and not "on the clock" , but if your life depends on your skill and your gear , then for the love of God , PRACTICE,  whether it is on the clock or not . It worked for me. You just got to get it in your head that the trigger area and the muzzle are DANGEROUS even when unloaded. I am OCD so that really helps LOL .