New gun blamed for rise in LA County deputy shootings

[waynesan]

http://news.yahoo.com/gun-blamed-rise-la-county-deputy-shootings-174044276.html

 

 

The inspector general of the Sheriff's Department is investigating the increase in accidental firings. But sheriff's officials attribute the increase to the learning curve for the new weapon, the Smith & Wesson M&P9.

 

[Garufa]

Why are they running around with their fingers on the trigger?

[btq96r]

Worst.  Excuse.  Ever. 

 

Either their firearms safety training program is substandard, their officers adherence to firearms safety is substandard, or some combination of both. 

[Raoul]

I will only say that of the local departments of which I am familiar, very few place a great deal of emphasis on regular firearms training.

[EssOne]

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is one of the most professional uniformed police agencies in the United States, and adheres to rigorous training standards. I've worked with them many times over the years.  My guess is that there is some kind of a glitch going on with the transition from the DA/SA Beretta M92 and the striker fired Smith and Wesson gun. It could involve the need for different handling procedures or enforcement tactics, or the use of different holsters, etc. etc. The number of AD's with the new gun says to me that the problem is in the transition training process or equipment somewhere, but blaming the gun is nonsense - the guns aren't firing themselves. If I had to bet on a possible cause, it would be that deputies are applying Beretta 92 habits to the new pistol and that doesn't work. LAPD is converting from the Glock to the Smith and Wesson guns and is having no such problems.

Edited June 14, 2015 by EssOne

[tercel89]

Good Lord :rofl: I hate to make fun of someone but damn this is or SHOULD be common sense. Just like Garufa said in the second post , are they running around with their fingers in the trigger guards ?

Edited June 15, 2015 by tercel89

[Monkeyman2500]

Booger hook on bang button. Bad results every time. Sounds like a training issue. Although if I was an LA cop I might have the same.

[DWARREN123]

Sounds like safety is not a priority in their training!!!   :2cents:

[TNWNGR]

Transitional training from the 92 or 5906 to an M&P in the hands of a 10-20 year veteran is a major shift in direction. All of the potential bad habits of staging a DA trigger while on a target become a ND  in the making with the M&P. E1 has the right of it, this is a transitional training issue that's only going to be solved by repetitive training. He's also right in questioning the type of holsters being used. I'm not going to point a finger at "finger on the trigger" because of sloppy gun handling.  

[Pete123]

I have to weigh in with EssOne and TNWNGR on this one.  Going from DA/SA to striker after many years is a big change.  LEO's spend a lot more time with their guns than the rest of us, making vigilance all the time more difficult with that natural tendency to gain a comfort level.

[EssOne]

Sounds like safety is not a priority in their training!!!   :2cents:

 

Safety is everything to them. The LASD is the fourth largest police department in the United States and the largest Sheriff's Department. It's patrol area is almost entirely high density, high crime metropolitan area rife with every racial and social problem known to man.  It has 9,100 full time deputies and 900 reserve deputies operating in a county of 10 million people - close to twice the population of Tennessee in an area a fraction of its size - and every one of them is making the transition from a DA/SA pistol to a striker fired pistol - all while trying to police some of the most difficult venues in the country.

 

Seven unintended discharges out of the 10,000 full time and reserve deputies under these circumstances is not, by any means, an indicator of laxness in their commitment to safety.

Edited June 15, 2015 by EssOne

[Monkeyman2500]

What are the training requirements when departments switch to a different firearm? I would think it was a big deal, but I might be wrong. I had not thought about how used to trigger control on a certain firearm someone could get, especially in a department where there is a higher likelihood of drawing the firearm. Edited June 15, 2015 by Monkeyman2500

[EssOne]

That depends on the department involved. When my outfit transitioned from revolvers to auto pistols, the transition course was 1,260 rounds, fired in two range days. Having experienced California's emphasis on peace officer training standards as a police trainer out there, I would guess that the state's Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training would probably insist on a minimum of at least a 300 - 400 round course for officers already qualified on auto pistols when they transition to the new pistol, and the ammo requirement for monthly practice courses would probably be increased quite a bit for six months or so. Like I said that's an educated guess, and each department would be allowed to fire as much above and beyond the minimum as they wanted or could afford. They take firearms training out there very seriously - my department had a 2,000 round training standard for cadets in training twenty years ago, just to give you some idea, while Tennessee had a 600 round requirement at that time. They get in lots of shootings out there and do indeed take it seriously. Very seriously. Hope this helps answer your question.

Edited June 15, 2015 by EssOne

[shotgunshooter]

I don't think there is anything as an AD because if you put your meat hooks on the on button it goes off. This makes you negligent. I have never seen a gun go off. If I could buy one that would load and shoot itself that would take the fun out of shooting. 

[zybysco]

I have to weigh in with EssOne and TNWNGR on this one. Going from DA/SA to striker after many years is a big change. LEO's spend a lot more time with their guns than the rest of us, making vigilance all the time more difficult with that natural tendency to gain a comfort level.

I'm betting most everyone on here shoots way more than police officers. They really don't shoot that much.

On another note, when I shoot any of my varied guns, the guns only go off when I expect them too.

[mikegideon]

Safety is everything to them. The LASD is the fourth largest police department in the United States and the largest Sheriff's Department. It's patrol area is almost entirely high density, high crime metropolitan area rife with every racial and social problem known to man.  It has 9,100 full time deputies and 900 reserve deputies operating in a county of 10 million people - close to twice the population of Tennessee in an area a fraction of its size - and every one of them is making the transition from a DA/SA pistol to a striker fired pistol - all while trying to police some of the most difficult venues in the country.

 

Seven unintended discharges out of the 10,000 full time and reserve deputies under these circumstances is not, by any means, an indicator of laxness in their commitment to safety.

 

Seven unintended discharges isn't even newsworthy. Seems to me that they should be able to fix it pretty quickly. 

[EssOne]

Seven unintended discharges isn't even newsworthy. Seems to me that they should be able to fix it pretty quickly. 

Yeah I agree. Give LASD a little time to get used to the new gun and the ND's will go down to nothing. Besides, 7 ND's, of which 5 were with the new gun, out of a force of 9,100 full-time Deputies and 900 reserve deputies hardly screams of a massive problem.

 

The real problem is that some idiot in the LASD PR department released the information in the first place. Any department with any sense at all knows this can happen a few times before guys get used to a new gun. I wish I had a nickel for every time one of my guys scared the peediddlypoo out of me by holstering our then-new S&W M4006's without decocking them - now that's a real laundry-bill-runner-upper when you see it for the first time and you're the range officer. All that was going on in those cases was they were applying double action revolver muscle memory to a gun that had to be decocked before holstering it.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2015 by EssOne

[Chucktshoes]

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department is one of the most professional uniformed police agencies in the United States, and adheres to rigorous training standards. I've worked with them many times over the years.  My guess is that there is some kind of a glitch going on with the transition from the DA/SA Beretta M92 and the striker fired Smith and Wesson gun. It could involve the need for different handling procedures or enforcement tactics, or the use of different holsters, etc. etc. The number of AD's with the new gun says to me that the problem is in the transition training process or equipment somewhere, but blaming the gun is nonsense - the guns aren't firing themselves. If I had to bet on a possible cause, it would be that deputies are applying Beretta 92 habits to the new pistol and that doesn't work. LAPD is converting from the Glock to the Smith and Wesson guns and is having no such problems.

I was about to seriously call shenanigans then, I realized you were talking about the LASD and not the LAPD. :lol: It really is a non-story as long as no citizens were hurt and were made whole for any resulting property damage.

[Garufa]

Does their training not include keeping the booger hooks off the bang switch, regardless of what type of pistol?

[A.J. Holst]

This reminds me of the NYPD and the KAHR K9...lighter/different trigger than the duty weapon coupled with limited training. The gun is at fault because your finger was on the trigger.

In a mega department with tens of thousands of officers, how in the world can they get adequate training unless it is off duty?

[Jonnin]

training aside, it would seem that a tiny # of officers have gotten in the habit of resting their fingers on the trigger with the understanding that the excessive trigger pull won't go off without more force being applied.  This is not working out well for a usable trigger that goes bang when a small amount of force is applied.   I suspect this has nothing to do with training and a lot to do with a small # of people doing it their own way and getting schooled on their mistake.

[EssOne]

Does their training not include keeping the booger hooks off the bang switch, regardless of what type of pistol?

Of course it does. Now throw in mortal fear of death in approaching a stolen car and tripping over a stroller while approaching a dangerous residence, and guess what happens?. When you have that many people doing that much dangerous work while handling pistols, some of this is going to happen. The people who had ND's prolly got suspended for a few days for it.

[EssOne]

training aside, it would seem that a tiny # of officers have gotten in the habit of resting their fingers on the trigger with the understanding that the excessive trigger pull won't go off without more force being applied.  This is not working out well for a usable trigger that goes bang when a small amount of force is applied.   I suspect this has nothing to do with training and a lot to do with a small # of people doing it their own way and getting schooled on their mistake.

Absolutely correct.

[Jonnin]

Of course it does. Now throw in mortal fear of death in approaching a stolen car and tripping over a stroller while approaching a dangerous residence, and guess what happens?. When you have that many people doing that much dangerous work while handling pistols, some of this is going to happen. The people who had ND's prolly got suspended for a few days for it.

 

which is wrong IMHO.  Send them thru 2 weeks firearms practice and training (possibly unpaid).  Sending them home and people are like teenagers that discover that doing certain things at school gets you a 3 day break from school ....

[EssOne]

which is wrong IMHO.  Send them thru 2 weeks firearms practice and training (possibly unpaid).  Sending them home and people are like teenagers that discover that doing certain things at school gets you a 3 day break from school ....

 

 I didn't go far enough. Of course the suspension is done in company with remediation of the problems that caused the ND. It's punishment plus retraining, not just punishment. Sorry I didn't talk about that in my earlier post.

Edited June 15, 2015 by EssOne