First Amendment

[Guest Spru]

So this is an update to a thread that was locked a while back. It was about the guy who flipped the cops off and was then pulled over by an APC and officers in full flack gear. I'm not here to reignite the same anti-cop conversation but thought it a good segue to talk about something I have seen lately. So before I start here is the article that apparently, as with the courts, says that flipping the bird is free speech.

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20150522/ARTICLES/150529896?p=1&tc=pg

Anyway, I've seen a trend in people (including but not limited to vets) talking about the flag desecration challenge that has been going on. Most recently I saw a video of a marine vet making a half assed threat ("we will have a problem"-we all know what that means) to people who may be burning or stepping on flags. My question is how anyone who has fought for this country or even supports this country can be against it. That is rule #1 in America. That people are allowed to say and do basically whatever they want, even if it pisses people off, as long as they don't actually infringe on someone else's rights.

This guy in particular got my attention because he was a vet. Something he risked his life to support and he wants to take it away from someone...with violence. He doesn't like what someone has to say/express so he wants to censor them.

Now I am not a flag burner by any means but I'll defend someone's right to do it to the death. How about you?

Preemptively- If you are going to quote US Flag code then you should look up the SCOTUS ruling in Texas v Johnson and the later related ruling by the SCOTUS to federal laws.

[Mike.357]

Stepping on or burning a flag?  To what end?   

 

I get free speech.

 

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Edited May 30, 2015 by Mike.357

[Pain103]

He can legally burn a flag if he wishes but I think he did it to get attention. He is getting some attention alright maybe not the kind he wanted.

[Spots]

I'm a Marine vet, and support free speech. Free speech is great. Call me whatever you want, insult vets, cops , and everyone else etc. But everytime you step on that flag all I can see is you stepping on the one who draped my best friends coffin, and that was handed to a 22 yr old widow in front of their two children. So yeah, I'm probably gonna get a little emotional and bust somebodies skull if they stomp that flag. Like I said I would die for that flag. Going to jail for it ain't shit.


Oh. And I support gay married couples right to protect their pot plants with full auto, suppressed 10" AR-15's and drink 64 Oz big gulp sodas. Edited May 30, 2015 by Spots

[ArmyBrat61]

Free speech has consequences.....your right to yell FIRE in a packed movie theater has the consequence of being arrested after you get trampled....burning the flag  (that my family members bled and died for) to make a point has painful and bloody consequences. A contradiction you say....rights carry responsibilities...you are responsible for your actions as you exercise your rights.

[TNWNGR]

good, the LEA in question handled the bearcat incident in such a way it's going to manifest itself into other LEA policies. That's one of the positive spin offs of complaint investigations. As to the flag and freedom of speech, I don't like seeing our flag desecrated and consider persons or groups who do such despicable.

[Whisper]

Free speech has consequences.....your right to yell FIRE in a packed movie theater has the consequence of being arrested after you get trampled....burning the flag  (that my family members bled and died for) to make a point has painful and bloody consequences. A contradiction you say....rights carry responsibilities...you are responsible for your actions as you exercise your rights.

And if you attack someone for burning a flag, understand that you will likely be arrested for assault, which you will deserve. As you say, actions have consequences.

People who burn or otherwise desecrate the American flag are pathetic attention-seeking vermin who are trying to elicit an angry response. Why play into their hands and give them what they want?

Now, if you realize that attacking a flag-burner constitutes assault, but you consider the penalty for assault a worthwhile price to pay for administering a beatdown to said flag-burner...well, that's why we have freedom of choice.

God bless America,
Whisper

[Dolomite_supafly]

And while people think they can say anything they want under the guise of "freedom of speech" I will say they cannot. The protections afforded someone under the First Amendment is only there to protect the individual from the government, it does not protect them from another private party. Because I am not a government agency I can limit people's right to free speech on my property. If I don't like what you are saying I do not have to listen to it and can tell someone to either quit or leave my property. No one has the right to say whatever they want whenever they want, especially on private property.

 

And one must realize that even though they may be allowed to say what they want under the guise of "free speech" there are consequences for what they say, both good and bad, and there should be. One must weigh the consequences to determine if the personal reward of saying what they want outweighs the risks. For most people the risks are far too great to speak their mind most of the time. Everyone weighs those decisions every day and just because someone may have a right to say something does not mean they will not suffer the consequences for what they chose to say. Just because someone has the right to say something does not mean they are exempt from the consequences and if those consequences break the law then they will have to deal with their own set of consequences for their actions. I can guarantee there is not a single person on this board who speaks their mind 100% of the time without weighing the consequences.

[DaveTN]

I believe you are free to do whatever you are ready to take responsibility for. If you want to take action that will get you negative attention from the cops...go for it. If you want to burn a flag in front of American Patriot’s...go for it.

We have people of all generations that think their actions are protected or have no consequences; they are wrong.

[Jonnin]

Freedom of speech / press are greatly confused by the masses anyway.   The right simply says that government cannot censor you (you see tons of morons that would claim that a forum like this one censored by David is a violation of free speech, and other such nonsense).   You still can't lie in court.  You still can't do false advertising.  You still can't drive someone to suicide with online harassment.   You also can't display *extremely* crude porn in public as "art/free speech".    Flipping the bird... is questionable.   Is it rude and crude enough that subjecting small children to it in public is acceptable in the name of free speech?  One could argue that both ways -- same as the neverending argument about what is art and what is porn, or closer to home, what is art / entertainment and what is causing people to go on shooting sprees (movies, video games, etc).   I know if I had a 3 year old, I would not want them seeing people flipping the bird nonstop in public, and I do not consider a ban on extremely graphic language or symbols in public to be "censorship" so long as those same things are allowed at "adult" gatherings etc.   Kinda like prime time TV ...  to me flipping the bird in public is on par with allowing a donkey show at 7PM on cartoon network, and regulation of such things is not "government censorship" to me.

 

As for flag burning, go for it. 

Saying that flag burners indicate that we have a problem is not threatening ---  it could be, or he could be stating the obvious that America is full of anti-American idiots --- a very high % of them, actually, and has been for over 50 years.  That indicates a problem to me, too!  I support their right to burn it or whatever, and I support the right of that marine to call them down for it too.  Long as no one harms anyone else, its all fine by me.

[ArmyBrat61]

Excellent points made gentlemen. It is good to see agreement and disagreement all while maintaining an adult dialog. Personal choices and personal actions deserve personal consequences.....that is the basis for our laws. I will admit to a personal, emotional response to flag burning and what it stands for to me. I am ready to accept the consequence of my actions, even the emotionally powered ones, if they defend what is good, just, right and holy. Most of those terms have become obsolete instead of aboslute in this day and age....a further reflection of the decline of this country. I am aware that the beliefs and opinions I hold/express are shared by others on this board, on others boards, in my place of work and house of worship. I am aware that more and more people across the city, state and nation I live in do not. Rights, responsibilities, consequences and actions used to be grounded by absolutes. The OPs post demonstrates the hazards of diversity between people of different values. It does bring up the question of tolerance.....when/how to stop something that is wrong? What benchmark do we use for determining what is wrong? Where do we as, individuals, a community, a nation drawa line in the sand and say NO more....I believe that all of us will soon have to answer that question for ourselves. God bless America. God save America.

[Guest Spru]

I see a lot of actions have consequences talk here. But burning a flag doesn't. If you decide to assault them then your actions have consequences, not theirs. Here is one to think about though, if someone is exercising their 1st amendment and you try to suppress it with violence and they use their 2nd amendment you are royally screwed. They have a right to do what they are doing, you don't have a right to assault them.

As for the yelling "fire" comparison, there are laws limiting what you can and can't do. The courts have ruled that burning a flag is protected and the government can't make laws against that. There are laws against you assaulting them, regardless of the reason short of self defense.

With private property, they can say or do basically anything they want (not breaking a law) until you tell them to leave. But then they can just stand on the side of the road right in front of your private property and do it all day long on the public property.

But I would even go as far as to say that those who admit they would be violent in a situation that does not call for violence should be mentally evaluated as a danger to society. What is the difference in you getting pissed off and punching the person and them dying from a brain hemorrhage and the thug that shoots a guy (or beats him to death) for saying "Your mamma..."? Both just free speech. You are both prone to violence.

The bottom line of this was to make you think about when you use violence against someone. There are reasons it is called for but someone's expression isn't.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Spru

[Ted S.]

 That is rule #1 in America. That people are allowed to say and do basically whatever they want, even if it pisses people off, as long as they don't actually infringe on someone else's rights.

 

That's more of an Anarchist thing than an American thing.

[Spots]

I see a lot of actions have consequences talk here. But burning a flag doesn't. If you decide to assault them then your actions have consequences, not theirs. Here is one to think about though, if someone is exercising their 1st amendment and you try to suppress it with violence and they use their 2nd amendment you are royally screwed. They have a right to do what they are doing, you don't have a right to assault them.

As for the yelling "fire" comparison, there are laws limiting what you can and can't do. The courts have ruled that burning a flag is protected and the government can't make laws against that. There are laws against you assaulting them, regardless of the reason short of self defense.

With private property, they can say or do basically anything they want (not breaking a law) until you tell them to leave. But then they can just stand on the side of the road right in front of your private property and do it all day long on the public property.

But I would even go as far as to say that those who admit they would be violent in a situation that does not call for violence should be mentally evaluated as a danger to society. What is the difference in you getting pissed off and punching the person and them dying from a brain hemorrhage and the thug that shoots a guy (or beats him to death) for saying "Your mamma..."? Both just free speech. You are both prone to violence.

The bottom line of this was to make you think about when you use violence against someone. There are reasons it is called for but someone's expression isn't.

Their actions still have consequences. It may not be from the government, but if I go to jail for stomping the hell out of some moron burning a flag, I'm ok with that. If you think I need a mental evaluation that's fine. The Marine Corps gave me one when I was Honorably Discharged and dint find anything wrong. Unlike what Mama may have told you, Violence does solve problems. This country would be a hell of a lot better place to live if assholes still got their guts stomped out for being idiots. Instead we pander to them, forcing our already overloaded courts to make decesion on whether something such as flag burning is covered by the 1st amendment. I said it before and I'll say it again. I take burning or stomping that flag as a personal insult, both to myself, to my best friend and his widow and orphans, and to every American who has been brought home draped under it. I am a violent person when I need to be, what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong. No matter what the government says Edited May 31, 2015 by Spots

[Guest Spru]

Yeah see, resorting to violence because you were insulted is screwed up and you should be in a mental hospital. There are things that are solved by violence but insults (indirect insults at that) aren't one of them. I really hope you try to stop someone from exercising their 1st with violence while they are also exercising their 2nd.

Seriously, how screwed up are you that you think violence solves non-violent problems? You also realize you are talking about committing a crime here right? Rule #3 of the TGO Code of Conduct.

[Guest Spru]

That's more of an Anarchist thing than an American thing.

No that is exactly what it is for. So that the king or noblemen (government) couldn't do anything about you speaking ill of them (pissing them off).

Edited May 31, 2015 by Spru

[MrsMonkeyMan2500]

Yeah see, resorting to violence because you were insulted is screwed up and you should be in a mental hospital. There are things that are solved by violence but insults (indirect insults at that) aren't one of them. I really hope you try to stop someone from exercising their 1st with violence while they are also exercising their 2nd.

Seriously, how screwed up are you that you think violence solves non-violent problems? You also realize you are talking about committing a crime here right? Rule #3 of the TGO Code of Conduct.

Talking about committing a crime would be a direct statement or threat. If you mean where Spots said "if I go to jail for stomping the hell out of some moron burning a flag, I'm ok with that.", that really isn't a threat/admission of guilt. It's more of a hypothetical.

It seems like you're kinda being passive aggressive and wanting to start verbal disagreements, which is ok. Totally ok. But if you're going to go down a road, make sure you are choosing the right path. You're talking about a veteran. You're saying some pretty not nice things to him. Sure, there's some attitude from time to time on here. Yes, the men can be a bit catty and argumentative. But I bet they would all stick up for Spots in a heart beat. Especially to a newb like you. Take a chill pill and get some rest. You'll feel better in the morning. Edited May 31, 2015 by MrsMonkeyMan2500

[Spots]

Yeah see, resorting to violence because you were insulted is screwed up and you should be in a mental hospital. There are things that are solved by violence but insults (indirect insults at that) aren't one of them. I really hope you try to stop someone from exercising their 1st with violence while they are also exercising their 2nd.

Seriously, how screwed up are you that you think violence solves non-violent problems? You also realize you are talking about committing a crime here right? Rule #3 of the TGO Code of Conduct.

By all means, if that's me talking about committing a crime, then the admin can send me a pm. I know you have no idea who I am. I don't really care if you ever do. I have had dozens of TGO members under my roof, shoot at my house, and come learn blacksmithing in my shop. I would give a stranger the shirt of my back and the food off my plate to help them. But I was raised different than most. I was raised that your word means something, you take your hat off at the table, you call people Sir and Ma'am, and you don't desecrate a flag. If someone insults my wife or my mother they will either apologize or I will most likely put them in the hospital. If I catch someone beating a dog, horse, etc, I am going to return the favor. If I catch someone beating a woman or a child I'm going to kill them. And I'll stand before a judge, jury and Almighty God and say the same thing. You don't insult people, you don't hurt those who can't defend themsleves, you don't lie, cheat or steal. Burning a flag was your question, but your intent was to start a fight. That's fine by me. I've been around far to long to fight on the internet. I don't really care if you agree or disagree with my values. But it pays to remember that some people live by the law of what's right or wrong, not what some paid off judge decides. I'll gladly face any consequences for my actions, and answer for them. But I'll die knowing I stood for something and didn't compromise my values for some piece of garbage who thinks torching a flag is perfectly ok. It also pays to remember that carrying a gun doesn't automatically make you a badass. There are those that will make you eat that gun, holster and all. Edited May 31, 2015 by Spots

[Spots]

I will say I find it amusing that you believe I should be committed to a mental hospital. You have never sat around the fire and drank coffee with me, broke bread at my table, worked with me in the shop, or even met me face to face. You draw this conclusion from 3 post, that basically say I would be violent to protect an American flag from being desecrated. You talk of freedom then suggest I be locked away for my opinion. I have no criminal record, no speeding tickets, I left the Marines Corps with an RE-1A (recommended for renlistment) code on my DD-214, with not even a bad counseling in 5 years. Interesting Edited May 31, 2015 by Spots

[TrickyNicky]

All I can say is  I100% support burning a flag if thats really your thing. I don't agree with it, but I won't do more than call you an asshole.

 

I also 100% support spots kicking the shit out someone over it. I don't agree with it, but I wouldn't do more than tell him to GTFO of dodge while I talk to the cops either. ;)

 

Guess that makes me a big ole hypocrite doesn't it.

[Grand Torino]

By all means, if that's me talking about committing a crime, then the admin can send me a pm. I know you have no idea who I am. I don't really care if you ever do. I have had dozens of TGO members under my roof, shoot at my house, and come learn blacksmithing in my shop. I would give a stranger the shirt of my back and the food off my plate to help them. But I was raised different than most. I was raised that your word means something, you take your hat off at the table, you call people Sir and Ma'am, and you don't desecrate a flag. If someone insults my wife or my mother they will either apologize or I will most likely put them in the hospital. If I catch someone beating a dog, horse, etc, I am going to return the favor. If I catch someone beating a woman or a child I'm going to kill them. And I'll stand before a judge, jury and Almighty God and say the same thing. You don't insult people, you don't hurt those who can't defend themsleves, you don't lie, cheat or steal. Burning a flag was your question, but your intent was to start a fight. That's fine by me. I've been around far to long to fight on the internet. I don't really care if you agree or disagree with my values. But it pays to remember that some people live by the law of what's right or wrong, not what some paid off judge decides. I'll gladly face any consequences for my actions, and answer for them. But I'll die knowing I stood for something and didn't compromise my values for some piece of garbage who thinks torching a flag is perfectly ok. It also pays to remember that carrying a gun doesn't automatically make you a badass. There are those that will make you eat that gun, holster and all.

While your entire post was perfect this part struck close to my heart.

 

 

 

I'll gladly face any consequences for my actions, and answer for them. But I'll die knowing I stood for something and didn't compromise my values for some piece of garbage who thinks torching a flag is perfectly ok.

Many people today lack goals or principals and even many that do lack the courage or intestinal fortitude to defend their principals. You don't strike me as one of them.

[analog_kidd]

We've been talking about being willing to accept the consequences for flag stomping, and it occurred to me that these consequences could last a lifetime in today's digital age. I have been in a position where I have been able to hire people for really good, well paying jobs. The first thing I do when considering interviewing someone is to do a quick Google or Facebook search on them. If I were to see a video of someone doing this, or even "liking" a post, I would immediately disqualify them. You may be the smartest person for the job, but you know what, I don't like you. You make a choice, and so do I. The good / bad thing about the Internet, is this kind of stuff is forever. You think you're being clever, or making a statement now while you're young or in college. Wait until you're 30 and see how the world really works, and you want to provide for your own kids. If I'm making the decision, those actions just cost you dearly.

 

I saw one video of a young girl doing some kind of dance move stomp on the flag. She had an ass the size of Texas and I kept thinking that living in America she was able to have a nice, cushy life with (relatively) no worries, and sit around getting fat. She probably never in her life stepped up to help someone else, or try to make this country a better place, only caring about herself, and what she could get. I occurred to me that the only patriotic moments she may have ever had were saying God Bless America, right after stuffing a bag of Twinkies down her mouth.

[Guest Spru]

Talking about committing a crime would be a direct statement or threat. If you mean where Spots said "if I go to jail for stomping the hell out of some moron burning a flag, I'm ok with that.", that really isn't a threat/admission of guilt. It's more of a hypothetical.

It seems like you're kinda being passive aggressive and wanting to start verbal disagreements, which is ok. Totally ok. But if you're going to go down a road, make sure you are choosing the right path. You're talking about a veteran. You're saying some pretty not nice things to him. Sure, there's some attitude from time to time on here. Yes, the men can be a bit catty and argumentative. But I bet they would all stick up for Spots in a heart beat. Especially to a newb like you. Take a chill pill and get some rest. You'll feel better in the morning.

No I was referring to "I'm probably gonna get a little emotional and bust somebodies skull if they stomp that flag." That is premeditation of a crime. No specific victim but premeditation of a crime none the less.

 

By all means, if that's me talking about committing a crime, then the admin can send me a pm. I know you have no idea who I am. I don't really care if you ever do. I have had dozens of TGO members under my roof, shoot at my house, and come learn blacksmithing in my shop. I would give a stranger the shirt of my back and the food off my plate to help them. But I was raised different than most. I was raised that your word means something, you take your hat off at the table, you call people Sir and Ma'am, and you don't desecrate a flag. If someone insults my wife or my mother they will either apologize or I will most likely put them in the hospital. If I catch someone beating a dog, horse, etc, I am going to return the favor. If I catch someone beating a woman or a child I'm going to kill them. And I'll stand before a judge, jury and Almighty God and say the same thing. You don't insult people, you don't hurt those who can't defend themsleves, you don't lie, cheat or steal. Burning a flag was your question, but your intent was to start a fight. That's fine by me. I've been around far to long to fight on the internet. I don't really care if you agree or disagree with my values. But it pays to remember that some people live by the law of what's right or wrong, not what some paid off judge decides. I'll gladly face any consequences for my actions, and answer for them. But I'll die knowing I stood for something and didn't compromise my values for some piece of garbage who thinks torching a flag is perfectly ok. It also pays to remember that carrying a gun doesn't automatically make you a badass. There are those that will make you eat that gun, holster and all.

When there is violence present then yes violence could very well be the answer. But reacting violently because you got your feelings hurt is dangerous. Not only to the community at large but to yourself when you knock someone to the ground and they shoot you before you even realize what is happening. Doesn't make them a badass, it is just a fact of what could (and if it were the case probably would) happen.

 

I will say I find it amusing that you believe I should be committed to a mental hospital. You have never sat around the fire and drank coffee with me, broke bread at my table, worked with me in the shop, or even met me face to face. You draw this conclusion from 3 post, that basically say I would be violent to protect an American flag from being desecrated. You talk of freedom then suggest I be locked away for my opinion. I have no criminal record, no speeding tickets, I left the Marines Corps with an RE-1A (recommended for renlistment) code on my DD-214, with not even a bad counseling in 5 years. Interesting

It doesn't matter if you are a good guy most of the time, you are admitting that you are a violent person that could snap at any moment because someone offended your delicate senses. Not that you would snap over something deserving of it but that you got your itty bitty feelings hurt. That is a danger to society.

I'm not saying you should be locked away for your opinion, I'm saying you should be locked away because you admit you will react violently to someone not doing anything to you.

You keep bringing up your service as if that means something. Check my profile. I'm not calling any vets anything. In my OP I was pointing out that vets that have risked their lives to protect Freedom of Speech are making dumbass threats like that to impede on their rights. Sure the rights are only there for the government not to step on but the laws against assault without just cause are there to protect them from you.

You also say that "some people live by the law of what's right or wrong" but you think it ok to assault someone without any threat to yourself. You think that is right? So does it offend you when you see a guy sagging his pants? You going to assault him? You get offended when someone uses swear words in public? You going to assault them? You get offended when someone farts in an elevator? You going to assault them too?

Here is a suggestion, instead of breaking the laws of man and decency, you simply use your 1st amendment right to shame them.

[Spots]

I'm done feeding the troll. Have fun with your opinion.

[Guest Spru]

Sure. But it isn't an opinion, it is a fact. You say you will assault someone without just cause, you are a danger to society. The end.