Barned copper bullets???

[jforrest]

I've been carrying regularly since I moved here from Maryland.

I've just been reading up on the law and it appears to say that 

solid copper bullets are illegal!  So, I guess I'm asking:  Is it true that

I cannot load up with Buffalo Barnes ammo?

 

Thanks for any info.  I understand what I read, I just find it hard to believe.

 

John

[Jonnin]

Armor piercing ammo is banned.   I am not aware of ANY action that would define solid copper as armor piercing BUT it could have happened.   The TN laws do not TO MY knowledge specify ANY ammo by material or such, but use vague terms such as armor piercing.   Hunting laws give more specifics about what you may use on which animals, but the criminal laws... are so vague that its unclear what is and what is not a pistol, let alone the ammo ...

 

for what its worth I have seen full copper bullets sold in TN including a weird type of 4 - section expanding round.   At places that would probably not have sold it had it been illegal to do so ... legit stores etc. 

 

If you found a legal statute / law, a link would be helpful.   I searched and found some gibberish from 2011 and 2010 about the BAFTE banning it federally for a couple of specific rifle calibers.  And some talk of maybe a ban (unclear if it passed or is real) on solid brass bullets.  And not much else -- none of it official.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Jonnin

[jforrest]

Does this say solid copper bullets are illegal?

 

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304(b). Tennessee also prohibits the possession, use or attempted use of “restricted firearm ammunition” in the commission or attempted commission of a crime of violence. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304(a), (b). “Restricted firearm ammunition” is any cartridge containing a bullet coated with a plastic substance other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a jacketed bullet with other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a cartridge of which the bullet itself is wholly composed of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1301(13). This definition does not include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets. 

[Garufa]

Does this say solid copper bullets are illegal?

 

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304( B). Tennessee also prohibits the possession, use or attempted use of “restricted firearm ammunition” in the commission or attempted commission of a crime of violence. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304(a), ( B). “Restricted firearm ammunition” is any cartridge containing a bullet coated with a plastic substance other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a jacketed bullet with other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a cartridge of which the bullet itself is wholly composed of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1301(13). This definition does not include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets. 

 

Were are you getting this from?

 

Current law reads (according to LexisNexis):

 

39-17-1304.  Restrictions on firearm ammunition.

  (a.) It is an offense for any person to possess, use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence. A violation of this section constitutes a separate and distinct felony.

  (b.) It is an offense for any person or corporation to manufacture, sell, offer for sale, display for sale or use in this state any ammunition cartridge, metallic or otherwise, containing a bullet with a hollow-nose cavity that is filled with an explosive material and designed to detonate upon impact; provided, that this section shall not apply to any state or federal military unit or personnel for use in the performance of its duties.

(c.) (1) A violation of subsection (a) by possession of restricted firearm ammunition is a Class E felony.

   (2) A violation of subsection (a) by use or attempted use of restricted firearm ammunition is a Class D felony.

   (3) A violation of subsection "(b)" is a Class E felony.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Garufa

[nightrunner]

TN doesn't ban anything ammunition wise that the Feds don't.

I carry Barnes TAC-XPD, it's not illegal.

[jforrest]

Thanks very much guys.

[Jonnin]

Does this say solid copper bullets are illegal?

 

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304( B). Tennessee also prohibits the possession, use or attempted use of “restricted firearm ammunition” in the commission or attempted commission of a crime of violence. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1304(a), ( B). “Restricted firearm ammunition” is any cartridge containing a bullet coated with a plastic substance other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a jacketed bullet with other than a lead or lead alloy core, or a cartridge of which the bullet itself is wholly composed of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1301(13). This definition does not include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets. 

 

And, no, it does NOT.   It says that if you are committing a crime, you can't use illegal ammo.   If you are not committing a crime, the rest of this paragraph is null and void, right? 

 

I suspect that if you shot a cop with a needle sharp 223 solid brass or copper round and it cut thru Kevlar and killed him you would be buried under the jail.    If shot shot a piece of paper with the same round,  no one would give a rat's rear.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I will say that the ATF does consider Barnes solid copper bullets to be armor piercing but they are no more illegal to use than any other bullet.

[jforrest]

Jonnin, I think it DOES say that, because of the comma after "possession".  But what I have is

apparently outdated or inaccurate.

[atlas3025]

Winchester E-Tips, which are solid copper, will blow right through an AR-500 plate at 100 yards when fired from a 300 Win Mag.  A lead core bullet fired from the same gun will not.  

[Jonnin]

Jonnin, I think it DOES say that, because of the comma after "possession".  But what I have is

apparently outdated or inaccurate.

 

That is an interesting issue.  Need a lawyer on that --- the blasted lawyers did not study grammar and use their own rules about english.   

To me, and in normal english, that breaks down to

 

Prohibits ( list of stuff) during violent crimes.   The comma to me would be following the rules for a "list of items" -- its the same as if the thing read:

"TN prohibits solid copper bullets during violent crimes"    to me.   Replace "solid copper bullets" with "excessively long and wordy list of crap" and the grammar/sentence structure is the same flow/meaning. 

 

But again, that would be just standard english, which is not what lawyers use, they use a mix of wrong grammar combined with archaic usage from the 1750s.

 

I do not know that it IS outdated, if I am correct, since the thing you found would then only apply to violent felons and not normal people.    If it applied to everyone all the time and I am wrong, it would have to be outdated, inaccurate, or buried/ignored since the bullets ARE sold here in TN.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Jonnin

[bersaguy]

I'm just curious, unless you think you might have to shoot someone wearing Body Armour what is the reason for carrying a gun loaded with All Brass or Copper loads. I would be afraid the round would pass through doing little damage and possibly strike an innocent person. I would much rather have my carry gun loaded with a ball ammo in FMJ but will do more damage and most likely not do a through and through endangering others behind your target................jmho 

[Jonnin]

I'm just curious, unless you think you might have to shoot someone wearing Body Armour what is the reason for carrying a gun loaded with All Brass or Copper loads. I would be afraid the round would pass through doing little damage and possibly strike an innocent person. I would much rather have my carry gun loaded with a ball ammo in FMJ but will do more damage and most likely not do a through and through endangering others behind your target................jmho 

 

copper is being sold as "lead free" for people to get a warm fuzzy about protecting the environment while spending $5 per round on ammo.   Some of it is flat nosed, some of it is a form of hollow point --- its not at all being sold as armor piercing.  NO one is selling needle sharp hardened copper slugs which would probably cut kevlar but not really do anything against plates/improved armor.  The light weight of copper and brass will reduce over penetration.  Hardness is only ONE factor of ballistics -- a lead slug that does not break up on impact will overpen MORE -- basic physics -> momentum.

 

Brass is "supposedly" capable of making "super accurate" bullets for precision shooters.  I have no comment on this, but here again, the legit use is not making needles either, they are just making standard bullet shapes or aerodynamic shapes.  

 

Neither is really *that good* at making *seriously* illegal ammo IMHO.  Get some hard steel and 30% lead filled backside with a wash-on coating to protect the barrel a bit and allow rifleing to bite a little.  Its not that hard to figure out or do.   Copper and brass are both too soft.  And any of it will have issues with being too lightweight if not careful.  This is obvious enough that I don't think mentioning it is really enabling any idiots,  and mentioning it is not saying its a good idea to do.  I am absolutely against anyone actually doing this. 

Edited May 29, 2015 by Jonnin

[nightrunner]

IMO, Barnes makes the best expanding bullets on the market for anything. I particularly like their loaded ammo, the TAC-XPD for pistols. They use a nickel plated case, which helps ever so slightly in feeding, and a Teflon costed solid copper hollow point bullet. The Teflon coating helps reduce friction on the bullet because copper is less dense than lead. Say for 9mm as an example, a solid copper 115gr bullet is the same physical size as a 147gr bullet, therefore it has more surface area touching the barrel and therefore more friction and you have less velocity.

Tests I have seen indicate that the Barnes HP provides maximum expansion, yet still provides industry standard penetration.

They are still loaded with primers containing lead, so they aren't completely lead free. But I don't give a damn if it lead free or not, having the best performing ammo is what's important to me.

[Oh Shoot]

....

39-17-1304.  Restrictions on firearm ammunition.

  (a.) It is an offense for any person to possess, use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime of violence. A violation of this section constitutes a separate and distinct felony.....

 

Similarly, though switchblades are now completely legit, it is still a separate felony to use one in commission of a "dangerous offense".

 

- OS