Mental Health and Gun Ownership

[TripleDigitRide]

A friend of mine asked me a question which I could not give a definitive answer. I thought I'd see what you folks have to say.

He's been going through some very stressful times while dealing with some personal issues, and he was wondering if he could lose his right to own guns or lose his HCP if he was to seek help from a psychologist or psychiatrist. What if they felt it necessary to prescribe him medication?

What say you?

[EMTRN]

Unless he is committed, I don't think it would be a problem. Everybody has hard times and can benefit from talking to someone. As far as the meds go, it is pretty common these days for people to be on them.

[TripleDigitRide]

Unless he is committed, I don't think it would be a problem. Everybody has hard times and can benefit from talking to someone. As far as the meds go, it is pretty common these days for people to be on them.

That was pretty well the answer I gave him, but I wan't 100% sure. I was trying to recall exactly how the question(s) were worded on the 4473 and HCP application in regards to mental health issues.

Thanks!

[Fallguy]

AFAIK only if he was hospitalized for it.

There was a recent AG opinion, 08-133, about people with PTSD that said they could still get a HCP while recieving treatment as long as they were not hospitalized.

So it would seem that anyone could seek treatment for for any mental health related issue and be disquailifed for a HCP.

Just another note, as the law is written now, it would also seem that any hospitalization for a mental health issue is a permanent disqualifer.

[alwayspackin]

Unless he is committed then he will still be able to legally possess a weapon. But, he needs to read the labels and warnings on his medications. If he is involved in a shooting and on medication that has specific warnings then he can be held liable. A Doctor is not allowed to prescribe certain medications if you carry a weapon. It doesn't matter whether you are LEO or a private citizen. My doctor asks everyone that he prescribes medication to.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p> </o:p>

[Guest Revelator]

Everyone's been right, just here's the law on it. TCA 39-17-1352 deals with suspension and revocation of permits. One way your permit could get suspended or revoked is by not disclosing any information required by -1351, which lists the requirements for first getting a permit. And one of those requirements is "That the applicant has not been adjudicated as a mental defective; has not been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution; has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect; has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of mental illness, developmental disability or other mental incapacity; and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in title 33, chapter 6, part 5, because of mental illness;"

[Kano]

We are all a little crazy....

[Guest Verbal Kint]

My advice... seek counsel with whatever religious figure he has. Pastor, priest, minister, rabbi (no, not that rabbi), etc. Often times they are just as good, if not better, than a shrink... and seeking help in that capacity would keep it from coming back on his gun rights.

Sure, they won't be able to prescribe him drugs... but I'm firmly against psych drugs anyway, and I'm the son of a pharmacist who's been in the business longer than I've been alive. Very rarely do those drugs do good more than they do harm.

Cliffnotes: Use your religious clergyman.

[Luckyforward]

My advice... seek counsel with whatever religious figure he has. Pastor, priest, minister, rabbi (no, not that rabbi), etc. Often times they are just as good, if not better, than a shrink... and seeking help in that capacity would keep it from coming back on his gun rights.

Sure, they won't be able to prescribe him drugs... but I'm firmly against psych drugs anyway, and I'm the son of a pharmacist who's been in the business longer than I've been alive. Very rarely do those drugs do good more than they do harm.

Cliffnotes: Use your religious clergyman.

Verbal . . . unless your religious person ALSO has training in diagnosis of psychological issues, the average clergyperson may not have the training to offer the information you suggest.

I am both an ordained minister, and a Licensed Professional Counselor. My licensure as a counselor gives me the ability to offer the feedback you suggest. Most ministers, unless they have had special training in diagnosis and treatment issues may not be able to offer a qualified opinion.

[Guest Verbal Kint]

Whatever. Just offering my opinion.

[Luckyforward]

Whatever. Just offering my opinion.

Great opinion . . . just wanted everyone to know all!

[Guest nraforlife]

But, according to some anti-gunners, we are all frickin nuts for wanting to have firearms

[ZenDog]

Some psychologists (like me) and other mental health folks are 'sensitive' to things like security clearances, HCP status, FAA regs, etc. I used to have a TS/SCI clearance when I worked for Uncle Sam-- I know it it can really inhibit seeking help if you think you will be shut out of your classified job when they find out you have sought counseling. That sux.

Too bad there is not a directory of health care folks who have the HCP.

There are literally several hundred things you can diagnose someone with when they come onto your office. A professional who is sensitive to the issues can do the right thing for someone in need of help. If I trust them and feel good about where they are at regading their safety and the safety of others, they will get a diagnosis that sounds very normal and un-threatening, something sort of like like "stress" or "family problems". This works for cops and pilots, too, folks I deal with now and then in my office.

On the other hand, sometimes, unfortunately, the right thing for the professional is to call 911. Depends on who is in my office and where they are at. Public safety trumps an insane individual's right to carry.

[Luckyforward]

Some psychologists (like me) and other mental health folks are 'sensitive' to things like security clearances, HCP status, FAA regs, etc. I used to have a TS/SCI clearance when I worked for Uncle Sam-- I know it it can really inhibit seeking help if you think you will be shut out of your classified job when they find out you have sought counseling. That sux.

Too bad there is not a directory of health care folks who have the HCP.

There are literally several hundred things you can diagnose someone with when they come onto your office. A professional who is sensitive to the issues can do the right thing for someone in need of help. If I trust them and feel good about where they are at regading their safety and the safety of others, they will get a diagnosis that sounds very normal and un-threatening, something sort of like like "stress" or "family problems". This works for cops and pilots, too, folks I deal with now and then in my office.

On the other hand, sometimes, unfortunately, the right thing for the professional is to call 911. Depends on who is in my office and where they are at. Public safety trumps an insane individual's right to carry.

Well said . . . the DSM-IV has determined for me on more than one occasion who should not have a right to carry . . . or worse

[Guest Traumaslave]

With the HIPPA laws in place, who and how do they report any mental issues??

[Fallguy]

That's a good question...I'm not 100% sure they do.

I wrote to the Washington AG once asking why they do not honor TN permits. He answer had something to do with TNs inability to check mental health issues.

[I_Like_Pie]

Have a member of the family who went voluntarily to Parkridge Valley as a teenager...to cope with the divorce of parents. We had the same questions about this with respect to HCP and actually called the number on the TN.gov HCP site. They consulted with their legal council and came to the conclusion that since the member voluntarily attended the "hospital" that they were not disqualified from a HCP.

It took about a week for a response from them, but they were VERY nice. If you are in doubt I suggest you simply give them a call. I am sure they are swamped, but they are obligated to answer your questions.

Hope this helps!

[Fallguy]

Have a member of the family who went voluntarily to Parkridge Valley as a teenager...to cope with the divorce of parents. We had the same questions about this with respect to HCP and actually called the number on the TN.gov HCP site. They consulted with their legal council and came to the conclusion that since the member voluntarily attended the "hospital" that they were not disqualified from a HCP.

It took about a week for a response from them, but they were VERY nice. If you are in doubt I suggest you simply give them a call. I am sure they are swamped, but they are obligated to answer your questions.

Hope this helps!

I think that is the right decision, but the AG would seem to disagree.

See AG opinion 08-22, question 2.

In his analysis he says if a person has ever hospitalized in a mental institution, whether voluntarily or not, that person is permanently disqualified from obtaining a HCP.

There was a bill last session to put the 7 year time frame on voluntary commitment like there is on other things, but it was shot down like other bills.

[I_Like_Pie]

Fallguy

The thing is that a mental institution and a hospital treating people for mental problems is not the same thing. They came to the conclusion that benefited our position because of these differences.

=========================================

Mental Institution = Moccasin Bend

Hospital Treating people for mental illness = Parkridge Valley

=========================================

There is a BIG difference between the two. If a woman is raped or has been abused...it is often suggested that she attend a hospital program to promote mental well being. Same thing for troops with PTSD. This happens in a specialized hospital....NOT a mental institution.

There is a difference and the State of Tennessee 100% recognizes this difference. That is what the actual response of the people at the TN HCP office stated.

The AG opinion this February does not make that really clear...simply because if taken literally opinions #1 and #2 would create a catch-22. Does not make sense that someone could be addicted to alcohol for 30 years and seek treatment and wait 10 years to qualify for HCP and at the same time a rape victim seeking treatment be excluded from a HCP forever!?!? Because of this situation the distinction is made between institution and hospital.

Another situation...if you are in a HD shooting you will NEVER want to say "I need to visit the hospital as I have been under a lot of stress" If they want to observe you overnight for PTSD then you will be forever excluded from your HCP?

Edited November 17, 2008 by I_Like_Pie

[Fallguy]

I agree there is a difference between a hospital and a mental institution (never meant to imply otherwise) and thankful the state can tell the difference apparently.

I did not know what type of facility Parkridge Valley was.

Thanks for the additional information.

[I_Like_Pie]

I agree there is a difference between a hospital and a mental institution (never meant to imply otherwise) and thankful the state can tell the difference apparently.

I did not know what type of facility Parkridge Valley was.

Thanks for the additional information.

The thing is...I think that when they first put that line on the HCP it WAS terms for exclusion. Pretty scary when they put it that way.

There was a case in the midwest US in the mid 90's that clarified that.

[Fallguy]

The thing is...I think that when they first put that line on the HCP it WAS terms for exclusion. Pretty scary when they put it that way.

There was a case in the midwest US in the mid 90's that clarified that.

The main purpose of my post with the AG opinion was just to point out that if a person is hospitalized in a "mental institution" it doesn't matter whether it was voluntarily or not.

Also that as no matter how much you may have abused alcohol or drugs in the past...that if you can stay clean (or at least out of trouble) for 7 years then you can get a HCP, but that there is no such period of being ok for being found mentally ill. So although even alcoholics say you are an alcoholic for life, as long as you don't have a problem for 7 years you can get a HCP, but have one freak out episode and you can never get one. But anyway...

Back to Traumaslave's question...I don't think the DOS really has a way to check any of this on their own.

[I_Like_Pie]

Back to Traumaslave's question...I don't think the DOS really has a way to check any of this on their own.

Agreed.