Leupold Scopes for 1000 yd Shooting

[Guest DaG]

O.K. I'm in a quandry. My wife works at a store where I can purchase 25% less than distributor cost for Leupold scopes. I am looking at either a VXIII 8.5x25x50 with target dot reticle or a Mark 4 8.5x25x50 with MilDot reticle. What are the pros and cons of each glass? The rifle will be setup primarily for 1000 yds with the occasional sniper/tactical match thrown in. Anyone have experience with either scopes and if so what are your likes/dislikes. TIA

DaG

[Guest gcrookston]

I have a Leupold VariXIII 6.5x20 prepared by Premire Reticle with target nobs and MilDots. I've had it about 12 years and have shot 1,000 yards with it on a number of occasions and consider it one of my favorite scopes.

I also have a Mark 4 M1 16x I've had for about 15 years with fine duplex I've also shot 1,000 yrds with on numerous occasions.

And, I just picked up a Leupold Mark 4 M1 8.5x25 LRT I plan on enjoying for years to come with intentions of also shooting 1,000.

I have also owned Ziess and currently own about an equal number of Burris and one IOR.

For me, a variable power scope is a waste of money as they tend to get set at the top end and I record my dope from there (with the exception of the premier, which has all the dope set at 10x translated to 20x).

I find no faults in any of the Leupolds I own. I will note that the light travels better through a 30mm tube than a 1" one (the VariX is 1") and in dusk or dawn situations it's much easier to acquire a target with the 16x Mark 4 than with the 20x VariX. I also prefer the combat nobs of the Mark 4 to the target nobs of the VariX with their covers.

In my experience, I find no difference in quality between the high end Leupolds and high end Burris' scopes and when comparing like to like, I will generally purchase the one with the best price.

I like the Mildots because they take the guesstimation out of making adjustments, or if you are making extreme shots without adjustments. A Mildot table is taped to my rifle stock to remind me these days (there was a time I had it memorized)...

[Guest DaG]

Do you have to use high rings since they're both 50mm obj.? If so, how do you cope with cheek weld?

DaG

[GLOCKMEISTER]

what kind of gun are you mounting it on?

[Guest DaG]

Santa, er wife is getting me either a SPS Varmit 700 or the XCR Long Range Tactical. Either one, Christmas will be good! From what I can read and have been told, either one is a good rifle for 1000 but the glass is where I need to drop all the cash I can afford. Keep the suggestions and comments coming.

DaG

[Guest gcrookston]

Medium Height Mk4 Rings Holding my Mk4 M1 on my M1a, note the rear bell rests down in the protective ears where the rear sight should be (removed). It clears by 1/8" on either side and allows about 1.75" from C to C of optics and bore. I use a cheak pad on the stock for this rifle.

Standard height rings (Leupold), holding my VXIII on my bolt gun. Note, not much clearance on the front end.

I'm not really happy about the distance on the new Leupold using high Burris XT rings. I prefer to get the optics down as close to the bore as possible, but with an AR Style it's nearly impossible because the stock is flat-off the back of the receiver. I'd like to see that glass about 1/4" lower, but then it would be impossible to look through using the PRS stock.

Finally, I am really liking the GG&G mount and the Burris XTR Scope I'll put up against a Leupold any day.

So long as the only point of contact of the glass is with the rings and nowhere else on the rifle, ideally you want to get it as low to the bore as possible to avoid any issues with canting the rifle while shooting. What may be a few degrees on the bench can translate into several yards when shooting 1,000.

[323ssplt]

For the money, the Leupold Mark 4 is one of the best scopes on the market. I agree with gcrookston that the tactical turrets and 30mm tube are superior to the 1 inch tube and regular target turrets. Hell, the Army issues Leupold 10x Mark 4s on their M24 sniper rifles. We (Marine snipers) use Scmidt and Bender on our bolt guns, Mark 11's and Sasr's/M 107's. However, all of the designated marksman rifles I have seen are all using Leupold glass.

I'm in the process of building up a 338 Lapua and will be mounting a Mark 4 on it!

[Guest nitrous_mike]

As soon as I get finished with tooling up for reloading I am getting a Mark4 LR/T in 6.5-20x50 they seam to be a real solid piece for the money. I did want to get a Schmidt & Bender or Nightforce but I just can not afford one after the buying spree I have been on this year lol. BTW this will be going on my AR30 in 338LM as well.

[Guest DaG]

Well, I'm starting to lean towards the Mark 4 now. The question is now 20 or 25 x ? Will 5x make that much of a difference at 1000 yds?

DaG

[Guest gcrookston]

Well, I'm starting to lean towards the Mark 4 now. The question is now 20 or 25 x ? Will 5x make that much of a difference at 1000 yds?

DaG

At distances beyond 500 yrds my philosophy is one can't have too much scope. I recommend you get all the power you can afford. The military does this with 10x glass and I'm hard-pressed to do it with 16x glass. 20x glass is adequate. I'm looking forward to tomorrows shoot up in KY when I'll get to try out that 25x glass. Just fooling around in the neighborhood I can see what appears to be a definite advantage.

Edited November 10, 2008 by gcrookston

[Guest gcrookston]

As soon as I get finished with tooling up for reloading I am getting a Mark4 LR/T in 6.5-20x50 they seam to be a real solid piece for the money. I did want to get a Schmidt & Bender or Nightforce but I just can not afford one after the buying spree I have been on this year lol. BTW this will be going on my AR30 in 338LM as well.

I've got a Nightforce on my wish list. My brother has one on one of his rifles. When I win the lottery...

Edited November 12, 2008 by gcrookston

[Guest Traumaslave]

where I can purchase 25% less than distributor cost for Leupold scopes.

DaG

I know this is what you wrote but, do you mean 25% less retail or wholesale? Cause 25% less than "distributor"/wholesale cost is really damned cheap.

[John Wall]

Shooting at 1000 yards is a different world.

I am thinking the 45X Loopy Competition scope with either FCH or 1/8 min dot.

The Remmy XCR Long Range in 300 Win Mag is about what you want. The 40-X in a single shot model is another, better option. You will need an offset mount to be able to sight the scope in at that range. You may not be able to sight your rifle in closer than 300 yards or so.

For best results you will HAVE to load precision ammo with all that entails. If you are going to shoot factory ammo, you will not get the results you want. PERIOD.

The 300 Win Mag has been in the winner's circle at 1000 yards many times over the years.

If you are interested, I have some experience in shooting the 300 Win Mag at Long Range. Fed 215M, Reloder 22, and the 190 gr Match bullet is going to be what you wind up using, more or less.

Start looking at a Dillon digital scale for bullets, brass, and powder, Redding Competition dies for sizing and seating, Redding Comp Shell holders, Wilson Case Trimmer, long inside neck chamfering tool, primer pocket uniforming tool, flash hole deburring tool, and more. The RCBS Rock Chucker press is the standard, since it flexes less. A Dewey coated cleaning rod will be needed as well. Butches Bore Shine or Shooter's Choice bore solvent work well. Stay with one, and do not mix them. Brownell's has ALL brass bore brushes that cannot scratch your bore.

You will need to buy at least 500 new factory hulls to start with so you can segregate by weight. I recommend Winchester. They are thinner and hold more powder. At 1000 yards, you need a day's supply that weigh within .2 gr of each other. The same weight is better. I am talking two parts in seventy THOUSAND for weight. Buy bullets in some quantity so you get the same lot.

The Berger 190 Very Low Drag will shoot flatter at 1000 yards than the 190 Sierra Match King. There is a difference in price. A more aerodynamically designed bullet retains more velocity and gets to the target quicker. The quicker it gets there, the less drop, and more importantly, the less time wind has to work on it. Everything with the Magnum is centered around getting the bullet to the target as quickly as possible. This is done with expensive boat tail match bullets and LARGE quantities of slow burning powder.

This is going to pricey to set up, pricey and VERY time consuming to load and shoot.

I had what you wanted up to about a year ago. I had a Browning M-1000 Eclipse in 300 with the 45X Loopy. What a high performance rifle will do at range will surprise you. The Magnum with heavy bullets will KICK, even if the rifle weighs 10+ lbs.

I forgot about an adjustable rest for the forend and a sandbag for the rear. A 2 oz trigger will not be an option. Ad infinitum!

[Guest gcrookston]

John, You are correct about the 300 winmag.

But my favorite for shooting distance is the .264 Winmag, it's faster and flatter.

Hot rounds like the 300wm and 264wm are hell on a barrel, usually burning them out quickly, in the case of the 300 winmag, in about 900 rounds, in a .264 about 500 rounds. My 300 has 1200 rounds out of it and the erosion gauge could about drop through it. It was once a 1/2 moa gun, but now is about 3 moa

Shooting a .308 (7.62x51) @ 1000 yards is about like shooting a "pumkinball" (what is it, like a 14' elevation?)

I like to give the example of shooting steel plate: At 500 yards, the .223/5.56 will bounce, the 308/7.62 will "poof". At 1000 yards the 308 will bounce, the 300 and 264 will "poof". If you've shot distance on steel plate you will understand the "poof" as a bullet disintegrating on impact. It makes this little puffy cloud when it hits steel plate. Your spotter says "hit" and 2 seconds later you hear "tonk".

Still, making that 1k shot with a 308 is about more fun than one can carry in a bucket. All the "effective range" verbage starts meaning something when you get out there...

Edited November 11, 2008 by gcrookston

[323ssplt]

Guys, I will have to gently disagree with you about the 308/7.62 at 1000 yards. It is by no means an ideal thousand yard cartridge, but to dismiss it offhandedly is, I believe, premature. For anyone wanting to get into the game of long range shooting, it is perhaps the best cartridge to begin with. There is a tremendous amount of data out there to help out a new person, and several of the FACTORY loads will produce acceptable (1 MOA or less) accuracy out to the grand. Also, there are readily available guns that need little work in order to make them thousand yard guns. Just my

[323ssplt]

Now, as to scope magnification, our "work" guns have variable 3-12x Schmidts, which work for their intended purpose. However, I like more magnification on my personal guns, up to about 20 power. For me, anything really over 20 power is just a little too much . I dunno, maybe I'm just weird , I mean come on, have you seen my avitar.

BTW....HAPPY VETERANS DAY

[John Wall]

I would say that the 308 is suitable for 1000 yard shooting, by one well versed in reading the wind.

A ten mph crosswind will move the 308 over nine FEET at 1000 yards. This is in addition to the 35 or so foot drop at that range.

The 300 will drop around 20 feet and have a five foot wind drift at the same range.

The 264 will drop about 2 foot more and have about 4" less wind drift than the 300. The 264 IS a barrel burner. This round needs a 28" barrel.

I am using Berger VLD bullet info for this. Sierra Matchkings will have more drop and more wind drift, because they will lose more velocity at long range, and will take longer to get to the target.

Lilja makes a barrel with a proprietary bore configuration that can increase barrel life by 30%.

Wind doping is a vital part of long range shooting. The faster round simply makes things easier for the beginning long range shooter.

Been there, done that with long range shooting. It is getting hard to find a 1000 yard range these days. I know of two, and they are not close by.

If you read on the Internet of someone making incredible shots with a 308, just remember the word incredible means "so implausible as to elicit disbelief".

[Guest DaG]

I know this is what you wrote but, do you mean 25% less retail or wholesale? Cause 25% less than "distributor"/wholesale cost is really damned cheap.

Yep! 25% less than distributor cost. It's a once a year deal that she goes directly through Leupold.

DaG

[Guest DaG]

John Wall,

I would like to stay in F-T class. I was told that 300 WM would put me in F-O. CDNN had several of these awhile back. The guy said he could not get rid of them (patrol rifle versions).

Still, making that 1k shot with a 308 is about more fun than one can carry in a bucket.

Amen to that! The thing that got me hooked was a Barrett 82A1 @ 400 yds. Alot fun knowing you have that much power at your fingertips but the accuracy sucked. My buddy then put me behind a 338 LM with a Nightforce and it was over. The bug had bit! I then got to go to ORSA for a league shoot and another friend put me behind an AI in 308 with a Leupy BR-24. That was alot of fun. Next was the hotrod in 6.5x284. Talk about a shooter. But I was told the downside is the bbls burn out quick and that's also an F-O Class round. I guess that's why I want to start w/308 in F-T and use it for the occasional Sniper match. The glass is whats got me confused. Mark 4 w/mildots or fixed x with 3/8 target dot.

DaG

[323ssplt]

Mark 4 with mildots. Will really help in sniper comps as well as regular. However, sometimes the ranges are not that long in these comps and you need a scope you can dial down pretty far to find some of the targets. The last sniper comp I shot, targets were 350 and in, with the shortest one being about 65 yards and moving. And yes, you can only shoot rifles chambered in 308 and 223 in F/T.

[Guest gcrookston]

I It is getting hard to find a 1000 yard range these days. I know of two, and they are not close by.

If you read on the Internet of someone making incredible shots with a 308, just remember the word incredible means "so implausible as to elicit disbelief".

My wife and I are looking for a place, one of the requirements it a spot of land with 1,000 yards to a nice back drop, hillock.... if/when we find it, I'll be certain to count you in....

I've not been able to get out there to any distance since I move out of Colorado. there at the Ben Lomand club we tossed our pumpkin balls...

[Guest Traumaslave]

Yep! 25% less than distributor cost. It's a once a year deal that she goes directly through Leupold.

DaG

"Richard";)

[Guest DaG]

"Richard";)

Huh?